Lost Dutchman Mine

Oct. 31, 2005

Transcript:

>> Michael Grant:
Tonight on "Horizon", President Bush has another nomination for the United States Supreme Court. Cameras will soon be watching you when you drive on this stretch of the 101. And many have searched, some have died, but the mystery of the Lost Dutchman mine lives on in tonight's Arizona stories.

>> Announcer:
"Horizon" is made possible by the friends of Channel 8, members who provide financial support to this Arizona PBS station. Thank you.

>> Michael Grant:
Good evening and welcome to "Horizon". I'm Michael Grant. President Bush has nominated Judge Samuel Alito to the United States Supreme Court. If confirmed by the Senate, Alito would fill the vacancy left by retiring justice Sandra Day O'Connor. This nomination follows the difficulties the President had with his previous pick, White House counsel Harriet Miers. Joining us to give us some perspective on the nominee, ASU Law Professor Myles Lynk. Professor, good to see you.

>> Myles Lynk:
Good to be here.

>> Michael Grant:
Thank you for being here. You have an extensive background, including service in Washington. He comes from the third circuit court of appeals. What else do we know about Samuel Alito?

>> Myles Lynk:
He is a highly respected judge on the United States Court of Appeals Third Circuit, which sits in Philadelphia. He is a native of New Jersey. He has argued 12 cases before the Supreme Court. He served in the justice department during president Reagan's tenure in the White House. He clearly has the credentials for the job. He has been on the court of appeals for 15 years. He has a record that both his proponents and detractors will examine closely. He has a very strong record on First Amendment cases, protection of freedom of speech and freedom of the press. I would probably say that he is somewhat skeptical of an expansive right to privacy in the first amendment but he has a record that is basically one that he can be proud of and that I think will satisfy the President.

>> Michael Grant:
Fifteen years as a circuit court of appeals judge, particularly on the third circuit, this is going to be a paper trail that the Senate judiciary committee I'm certain is not going to be able to complain about. It's quantity. Obviously, certain members may focus on particular decisions and I'm sure will but in sharp contrast to Harriet Miers, 15 years as a third circuit judge is going to leave you an awful lot of paper trail.

>> Myles Lynk:
I think that's exactly right. The opinions of a judge are a matter of public record and they will be a matter of public record. I think that in this day and age of such contention in Washington, and in the Senate, you almost need to have that kind of a record and paper trail to be confirmed.

>> Michael Grant:
In fact, you know Harriet Miers and worked with her in different capacities including your services and her services as presidents of states or D.C. bars, as that may be. Was that her main problem? Are we getting to a point where if you don't have a judge's record and paper trail you can't be a nominee to the United States Supreme Court?

>> Myles Lynk:
I think that's a very interesting question. I don't know that her nomination teaches us that lesson. I think that there have been many outstanding justices who have not come from the bench and I suspect there will be many more. I think that Harriet Miers going from her present position to the Supreme Court was a leap that many in the Senate were simply not prepared to accept at this time. Had she been nominated for a district court seat, had she been nominated for a court of appeals seat, I think she would have gotten the seat without any problem. I think that the fact that it's the Sandra day O'Connor, justice O'Connor's seat that the nominee will fill, the fact that's seen as a swing seat on a closely divided court and the fact that both those who are liberals and those who are conservatives want to have some indication beforehand of the record of the person who will be filling that seat made it highly unlikely that someone without the paper trail that a judge has would be confirmed.

>> Michael Grant:
Early indications are that his nomination has satisfied conservatives. Early indications also are from the people you would expect that the nomination is not sitting well with liberals. What do you think?

>> Myles Lynk:
I think there will be a very serious scrutiny of the candidate, of the nominee. I think that Judge Alito is a highly qualified judge. He has the record, he has the credentials. The president is the president. And he has chosen this nominee. I think at the end of the day, if the only objection to him is that some members of the Senate disagree with his judicial philosophy, I don't think that will be enough to defeat the nomination. On the other hand, the Senate's role is to offer advice and consent. I think many senators will take that invitation to offer their advice with respect to this nominee and decline to consent. At the end of the day the nominee should be confirmed.

>> Michael Grant:
Is he confirmable to a certain extent in the same way John Roberts was confirmable? I remember very early on, Lawrence Tribe, who I doubt would see eye to eye with him, said you just simply cannot challenge his qualifications and credentials.

>> Myles Lynk:
I think there's a lot to be said for that. I think that would apply to some extent to Judge Alito. In one sense, Judge Roberts had a much shorter tenure on the DC Circuit Court of Appeals and that in a sense held him in good stead. The judiciary committee and the Senate looked back at memoranda he had written during the Ronald Reagan presidency, but I don't think that ultimately will hurt Judge Alito. I think that he has a longer record, there will be a lot of scrutiny, many questions he will be asked he really will not be able to opine on other than what is in the published record and I think it will be a vigorous debate. But I think at the end of the process, I expect he will be confirmed.

>> Michael Grant:
Is he a conservative or strict constructionist or perhaps both?

>> Myles Lynk:
A very interesting question. I think labels conservative and liberal are not always helpful in analyzing a judge and how a judge rules. Most judges would argue that they are construing the law, construing the constitution as if it's the constitution as the framers intended, if it's a statute as the Congress intended. Most judges would argue that and yet different judges will come out with different opinions analyzing the same language. I think Judge Alito, conservatives have embraced him, liberals have not. And so, by that standard you could say he is a conservative. I think labels like that are misleading. When one is elevated to the Supreme Court, it's hard to predict really how a judge will act because that is a forum where in fact the court does make legal policy in its decisions which become precedent binding on all lower courts.

>> Michael Grant:
That old Chinese expression, may you live in interesting times, we appreciate the information.

>> Myles Lynk:
Thank you.

>> Michael Grant:
The city of Scottsdale is currently awaiting a permit from the Arizona Department of Transportation to install a new photo radar system on the loop 101. The controversial system should be in place early next year. Here's a quick look at the plan.

>> Larry Lemmons:
Last week Scottsdale city Council voted 5-2 to approve a 9 month trial program to install photo radar equipment on the 101. At a cost $650,000, the cameras would be placed between Scottsdale Road and the 90th street exit. The city is hoping to pay for the cost of the system by the payment of speeding citations. The company providing the system, Red Flex Traffic Systems, has agreed to shield the city from liability for the $20 million insurance policy. The city in turn has agreed to shield the state from lawsuits thereby insuring the state's approval for the trial. The city of Scottsdale says the goal for the photo enforcement demonstration program is to reduce the number of vehicles that exceed the posted speed limit by 11 miles per hour or more and there by reduce the number of collisions. The city says a tentative time line calls for the equipment to be installed by early January. Speeding drivers would receive warnings through early February and the city would begin to issue citations afterwards.

>> Michael Grant:
Joining us now to explain the new system and what the city hopes to do with it, Scottsdale's mayor, Mary Manross. Welcome back.

>> Mary Manross:
Thank you. Nice to be here.

>> Michael Grant:
5-2 vote by the Council. Given the controversial nature --

>> Mary Manross:
Fairly solid vote.

>> Michael Grant:
What do you think about the Department of Transportation, legislator Dean Martin, who as you know has introduced legislation to try to stop photo radar? Word late last week was he was trying to slow down the department of transportation review of the permit. Have you heard anything?

>> Mary Manross:
I haven't heard anything, except what I've read in the paper the last few days. He has been campaigning for the last few years to prevent the technology everywhere, including Scottsdale. He was unsuccessful last year, that's why we're moving ahead. All I can say to folks like him is our community has been clamoring for us to help find a solution to the issues on the 101.

>> Michael Grant:
It's an incredibly dangerous stretch of road.

>> Mary Manross:
It is, so because we already have a contract with Red Flex, it's easy for us to amend that contract. To try to put this enforcement on the freeway, so that's what we're doing.

>> Michael Grant:
I think we can all start with the common statement I just made, it's an incredibly dangerous stretch of road, and I think where you diverge is whether or not this is the right way to try to solve that problem. Was there any hesitation, any doubt in your mind when you cast one of those 5 votes that this was the right way to go?

>> Mary Manross:
There was no doubt in my mind because I was on the Council in the middle 90s when we debated for a long time, hotly contested debate, about whether to try this technology on our city streets. We did move ahead on that technology and it's been very successful. It has really reduced the number of collisions. In fact, MAG studies showed in one year, from '02 to '04, our number of collisions has doubled on that 7.8 mile stretch. That's why it's worked well on the city streets. We decided we would try it on the freeways since we had the contract we can amend easily to try this pilot program.

>> Michael Grant:
Here is the possibly distinguishing factor though, freeways aren't like city streets, you are traveling at let's say a high lawful speed, you see a bright flash, you're trained a little bit to that now, you jam on the brakes and maybe this becomes dangerous, not safe. What do you say to that?

>> Mary Manross:
Well, we did look at that. That's always a concern. From all of the studies, this is used around the world on highways and freeways, Great Britain, Germany, Australia, I know there's a couple other countries I'm forgetting, that phenomena has not occurred. In addition to that not happening in the real world, on our Frank Lloyd Wright stretch of road, where we were having some terrible collisions, we decided to put some cameras on Frank Lloyd Wright, right along the roadway there, not at the intersection, not mobile ones but stationary cameras, and we noticed an immediate reduction in collisions. It actually does work. That's a very fast moving road. The closest we have to the freeway within our city. But the same type of character, same kind of driving occurs on Frank Lloyd Wright.

>> Michael Grant:
One of the other criticisms is that a machine simply cannot replace patrol officers. Judgment for that matter, the other things that they come up with when they make traffic stops and those kinds of things. Just not the same thing as getting a ticket in the mail 6, 7, 10 days later. Could we spend some amount of money and deploy officers?

>> Mary Manross:
Certainly we can. Scottsdale, the number of officers per thousand has gone up steadily for years now. Even as the program of photo enforcement began in '96, we have increased the number of officers per thousand so we are not supplanting officers, we are supplementing the work of the police and DPS. We have made that clear from the beginning. We're not trying to supplant them, we're trying to supplement them. Because the legislature year after year has failed to adequately fund have been woefully short in funding for DPS. And those good people deserve more funding. They deserve more officers to help get their job done. That hasn't been happening. Our community said, hey, you've got to help us out.

>> Michael Grant:
A lot of people come up to me and I'm sure a lot of people come up to you and say hey, city of Scottsdale is going to make money on this, I'm not buying that they are not making any money. What do you say?

>> Mary Manross:
Absolutely untrue. You can go look at our books now, you can see all the tickets that were issued, all the revenue that's come in, where every dollar has gone, it's totally public information. The reason why you heard these high million dollar amounts that were mentioned in the paper over and over is because by law when we create a municipal budget we are required to authorize, to put, to anticipate in our budget what a program might cost. When you don't have any idea, we haven't done this on the freeway yet, only for a 9 month pilot period, you put in several million dollars authorizing the budget so the money can be brought in and can be disbursed. We do not make any money off photo radar.

>> Michael Grant:
Scottsdale Mayor, Mary Manross, thank you for joining us.

>> Mary Manross:
Thank you.

>> Michael Grant:
It's one of the greatest mysteries of Arizona, the legend of the Lost Dutchman mine. As the story goes, somewhere deep in the Superstition Mountains is a cache of gold, allegedly hidden by the Apaches in the 19th century. One man, Jacob Waltz claimed to have found the gold. Today, the town of Apache Junction honors the legend of the Lost Dutchman mine. Producer Larry Lemmons and videographers Richard Torruellas and Scot Olson bring us the story of those still seeking.

>> Bob Corbin:
It's in there, no doubt in my mind. When I first started working I felt the same way. Then you spend a lot of time in there, you say it's not there. Then I went through not believing it. There's no doubt in my mind, again.

>> Larry Lemmons:
No doubt Bob Corbin believes gold is hidden in the Superstition Mountains east of Phoenix. That's why he's one of many who have scoured the peaks and valleys of this desert wilderness. Corbin has been at it for nearly half a century. No doubt gold has been found here but the source of the gold has been in dispute from the beginning. The Lost Dutchman monument in Apache Junction was created by the dons of Phoenix in 1938. It pays homage to the story of a German prospector named Jacob Waltz. He had found a gold mine in the Superstition Mountains in the late 1800's. He'd make periodic trips there and return to Phoenix with gold ore. It created quite a stir. Before he died in 1891, he supposedly left clues to the location of his mine.

>> Ron Feldman:
He also, when he died he had 24 pounds of very, very rich gold ore underneath his bed. In a candle box.

>> Larry Lemmons:
The Lost Dutchman mine was brought to popular attention by the 1949 film, Lust for Gold. A Hollywood take on the story. Glenn Ford plays Jacob Waltz.

>> Actor: Stranger,
You've hit it rich.

>> Actor:
How much?

>> Actor:
All that ore, I'd say close to 40,000 tons.

>> Larry Lemmons:
The story the movie was based upon was originally written by the real Barry Storm, who was also a character in the movie. He later disavowed the film, claiming communists had influenced the filmmakers. Storm had apparently hoped to strike gold in Hollywood. But it wasn't the movie that brought Bob Corbin to Arizona, it was the legend of the mine.

>> Bob Corbin:
I was a Hoosier back in Indiana. Going to Indiana University. One of the things we had to do was write a theme on a subject. I picked lost mines. And in reading and researching, one of them was the Lost Dutchman mine. From that point on, I was hooked.

>> Ron Feldman:
The Lost Dutchman mine is the Holy Grail, the great grand daddy of all lost mine stories.

>> Larry Lemmons:
Ron Feldman operates the OK corral in Apache Junction. He's also spent decades in the mountains on a quest for gold.

>> Ron Feldman:
I've spent 37 years of my life looking for it. People from all over the United States come looking for the Lost Dutchman Mine. All over the world actually. I have had the same people for the last 35 years, now their children and grandchildren come out and hunt this thing.

>> Larry Lemmons:
Organized treks have been made into the Superstitions at least as early as 1934. One year, the Dons of Phoenix, an organization preserving local culture, welcomed over 2000 guests. They arrived in bus loads. Over the years, visitors have been entertained with Dutchman lore and the opportunity to pan for gold. The day culminated with the re-creation of Jacob Waltz's story.

>> Bob Corbin:
We're going to find that gold.

>> Larry Lemmons:
Bob Corbin has made about a couple hundred trips to the Superstitions. He's been able to indulge in navigation because he makes a living as a lawyer and in fact, he used to be Arizona's Attorney General.

>> Bob Corbin:
The reporters know me as Attorney General, asked me why I like to go in there so much. I told them it's the only place I can go where you can't get to me.

>> Larry Lemmons:
Near the west face of the Superstitions, on the streets of Goldfield, tourists soak up the old west atmosphere. Trying to grasp what it might really have been like 100 years ago. This site marks the spot of the original gold mining town.

>> We revived it over the last 20 years. We've been fixing it up and opened it up for tourism. A lot of people just love the history.

>> Larry Lemmons:
Maybe they love to feel a little heat from gold fever. Around Goldfield are several abandoned mines. Like the Queen here, filled with water. Their secret safe. Goldfield's owner thinks he may be close to the Dutchman Mine.

>> Bob Schoose:
He said the mine was two miles back from the face. Referred to four peaks could be seen from the mine, He said you could also see the tip of weaver's needle from a small hill behind the mine. Does kind of fit the Bulldog. I think that's where kind of the facts get goofed up a little bit. Somebody says something as simple as two miles back from the face of that mountain is my mine. What did he mean by back, back into the Superstitions? Well you're right at the foot of Weaver's Needle two miles back. Or out this way a few miles back. It's little things like that that screw people up. For 100 years.

>> Larry Lemmons:
The owner of the OK corral has his own theory.

>> Ron Feldman:
What I learned real quickly, it wasn't too quick, took me 25 years to learn, where the Dutchman wasn't. I had a hunch on the east side of the Superstition Mountains, found many things that led me to the excavation we are currently doing to a Spanish mine under a treasure trove permit.

>> Larry Lemmons:
The lawyer Bob Corbin is keeping his theories to himself.

>> Bob Corbin:
I'm going to talk in generality. I have been looking since 1957, I have a lot of clues. There's no question a lot of people say there is no gold in those mountains. And there is.

>> Larry Lemmons:
Sometimes the Superstitions have a haze of mystery, a whisper of danger. There have been over 100 documented deaths in this wilderness.

>> Bob Schoose:
A lot of people have died looking for the mine. You know, it's real easy. It's a harsh environment. You go out there without the right equipment and supplies and water. It's pretty easy to get dead in a hurry. Some of them have been shot, killed, over a piece of dirt they thought they had the location and they didn't want anybody else around.

>> Bob Corbin:
I think it's an obsession, some people go in there with the idea they're going to find it. And it gets ahold of them and destroys their lives.

>> Larry Lemmons:
All the more reason to pack a bit of perspective along with a pick and axe on a trek into the Superstitions. This land is beautiful on its own without what may be a fool's promise of hidden riches. That fact doesn't deter the most hardened of seekers, they leave only to return.

>> Ron Feldman:
The perseverance that we have as Dutchman hunters, I suppose if you put those energies to something else, you could be President of the United States if you wanted to be, I don't know.

>> Larry Lemmons:
Or at the very least, Attorney General.

>> Bob Corbin:
Something about the mountains, they're very rough. Something about them is intriguing. You can't go in there with the thought you're going to find it. 99 out of a multi million times you're not going to.

>> Michael Grant:
Tonight is, of course, Halloween. Little ghouls and goblins are roaming the streets begging for treats or threatening tricks. There's another holiday celebrated at the same time. Producer Nadine Arroyo tells us about it.

>> Nadine Arroyo:
Halloween is here and that leads to scary and fun events around the Valley. There is one Hispanic tradition celebrated at the same time with its own traditions, Dia de Los Muertos, Day of the Dead. It's skulls, skeletons and folk tales leave everyone on edge. Places throughout the valley, including museums, community centers and restaurants are getting into the fun. Including the Mesa Arts Center in downtown Mesa. The art collection has a contemporary exhibit honoring this event. It includes spiritual depictions of Mexican culture and influences created by Valley artists. Moreno's Heaven's Border is a contribute to the many who have suffered and a sign of peace as they enter the next life. Sharing the faces of struggles and changes to the traditions we see today. As spooky as this may seem, it's all about tradition. Many believe day of the dead is a day of horror, ghouls, goblins, and monsters. In reality, Day of the Dead, or Dia de Los Muertos, is a Mexican celebration when many celebrate and remember loved ones who've died. They prepare special foods, decorate cemeteries and even have parades. It's their belief that the spirits of the dead come out and visit their families on October 31, and leave on November 2. Here in the Valley, many of these believes are kept alive. The exhibit is open through November 27th.

>> Michael Grant:
Happy Halloween. And please drive carefully. I'm Mike Grant. Thanks for joining us this evening. Have a good one. Goodnight.