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Each month, HORIZONTE presents stories about culture, people, and events in your community. Leandro Barbosa This season, 15 Latin American basketball players are contributing their talents to the NBA. One of them is Phoenix Suns point guard Leandro Barbosa from Brazil. Join HORIZONTE for a fascinating conversation with Barbosa about his experiences as a Latin American NBA player.

>>José Cárdenas:
Good evening, I'm José Cárdenas, Welcome to "Horizonte." President Bush's visit to the state this week focused on immigration and a guest workers' program. We'll talk about the issue and how it affects our US economy and work force. Meet the new Arizona lottery director and hear his plans for the future of the state agency. And in "Horizonte" sounds of Cultura SOC., get to know Phoenix Suns star Leandro Barbosa and details on a holiday tradition coming up at America West arena. These stories up next on "Horizonte."

>> Funding for Horizonte is provided by Bank of America, who applaud those who strive for excellence. Bank of America, higher standards. And by SRP.

>> José Cárdenas::
President Bush came to Arizona Monday to talk about border security and immigration reform. His plans call for a temporary worker program that would allow temporary workers to stay in the United States for up to six years before returning to their home country, but would not grant undocumented workers automatic citizenship. Many believe sending undocumented immigrants back home could disrupt many businesses in the United States. According to a study by immigration policy institute, the US economy is facing a demographic challenge when it comes to domestic demand and filling jobs in the work force. Immigration plays a vital role in many industries and the US economy as a whole. Here to talk about the issue is ASU economics professor Dr. William Boyes and Joe Sigg from the Arizona farm bureau. Thank you for joining us on "Horizonte." Let's start with the President's visit. Any surprises, Professor Boyes?

>> Dr. William Boyes:
I didn't really see any surprises. I thought maybe he came across a little bit more on the enforcement than he had pushed before, but the program looked pretty similar to what I've seen him talk about previously.

>>José Cárdenas:
The suggestion in the commentary is that he actually is moving more to the right, trying to show up his base, focusing more on enforcement, and less on guest workers. Do you not share that view that that's what's happening?

>> Dr. William Boyes:
Well, I think that's probably the political necessity right now. It seems like this is an issue that's -- that's policy making by sound byte. I don't see -- unfortunately I don't see as many nice natural says of the issue, and it's a complicated issue.

>> José Cárdenas:
Your group is in favor of some kind of immigration reform. Do you any the President's visit advanced that goal?

>> Joe Sigg:
I do. We heard him talk about border security enforcement, and then the other part of what we call the three-legged school -- comprehensive immigration reform, in our view, has to deal with controlling the border, appropriate enforcement, and as well legal access to reliable labor pools. And so reform of our Visa programs and guest worker programs is part of that three-legged school, and we were pleased that we're continuing to talk about that in a comprehensive fashion.

>> José Cárdenas:
We are talking about it, but there seems to be so many different voice and different proposals. The President met with the state's two senators, McCain and Kyl, both of whom have different proposals for how to deal with this. Do you see something coming out of congress this term?

>> Joe Sigg:
Well, I think that we'll probably see more enforcement type proposals coming out of the house later we'll perhaps see something more of a comprehensive look at the problem coming out of the senate. And then they'll have to conference the issue, you're absolutely right. There are plenty of plans out there, more in the making, and we have to settle this issue, and -- in a comprehensive fashion. We need border security obviously, we need appropriate enforcement to include interior workplace enforcement, but we also have to have a reliable and legal labor force to access.

>> José Cárdenas:
And why is that? You hear so often people saying it's business, and your industry, agriculture, which is -- you would have plenty of people who would work if it would pay more.

>> Joe Sigg:
We continue to pay more. Our wages rise, continue to rise, but when in a competitive industry. That matrix, that axis of pay more and supply increase assumes that there are no choices. And in are choices -- there are choices. We're in a very competitive global economy, and if our costs rise to a point, then we're going to really outsource our production someplace else. So simply increasing wages is -- requires a little more seasoning of economics and labor economics. At the same time, it also assumes access to labor supply. We see Department of Labor studies, we see other studies that point to the fact that our need for basic and entry level skills continues to increase in this country, and the supply of that labor continues to decline.

>>José Cárdenas:
And that's actually true, particularly in your industry, is it not, that there's a shortage right now of workers?

>> Joe Sigg:
We're experiencing shortages in our labor supply. We're seeing it more acutely in the seasonal because we're now beginning the lettuce and produce harvest in Yuma, and we're seeing a shortage in the labor supply. Labor comes on the domestic side our labor force is aging, it's increasingly better educated. Our native born labor force has other opportunities for employment, and in our industry we must rely on other sources of labor. And I use the axiom that if we don't bring labor in, if we don't -- if we don't source our labor coming in, we're going to be -- if we don't import our labor, we're going to be exporting our business.

>> Dr. William Boyes:
I'm sorry to interrupt, but it seems to me that what he's saying basically is that the agricultural industry, the profit margin is pretty small, and if you start raising wages enough to attract the labor force that exists here, you're going to drive that profit margin to the negative. So the only thing that the agricultural industry can do is to shut doors and it will be then located in the low wage countries, just like we're seeing outsourcing in other areas.

>> José Cárdenas:
And there have been proposals in the past that were specific to agriculture. Does that mean that's the only industry we should worry about, do something there and then shut off illegal immigration for the rest of --

>> Dr. William Boyes:
No, no, absolutely not. I think if you look at almost every service industry, you've got restaurants and you've got the construction industry, and you've got landscaping, and you've got house care, and housecleaning, and you can go down a whole list, meat packing, even manufacturing in the Midwest is filled with unskilled labor. And without the unskilled labor, the only thing you're going to do is see prices increase.


>> José Cárdenas:
And you've done some analysis of this, and you gave me a figure before we came on the set as to --

>> Dr. William Boyes:
There was a study done comparing the cost of the services in areas that don't have access to the huge legal and illegal labor force coming in, and there's about a 24% differential, which means you're going to see your grocery price go up 24 percent, your restaurant meals go up 24%. If you stop that labor, you're going pay for it. And I don't think that's part of the discussion that I've seen. What I think we have to do is start talking about the full costs and benefits of the immigration issue. Not just the sound byte that I see.

>> José Cárdenas:
Both -- both of you participated in the forum that our county attorney put on a few weeks ago. Did you have that kind of discussion, Joe, do you think at the forum, or was it more sound bytes than substantive and meaningful discussion?

>> Joe Sigg:
The panel I was on dealt with the specific issue of employer sanctions, and there were four panelists and it was -- seemed to be fairly evenly balanced. But I think that that -- Dr. Boyes is right, the economic message is not getting through. In agriculture it's not just the issues we talked about, it's also seasonal. Getting large numbers of people in particular locations where the labor isn't available at any given time, and it necessitate access to outside labor supplies.

>> José Cárdenas:
What is your position on employer sanctions?

>> Joe Sigg:
Well, we're all in favor of doing our part. We understand that we will see an increase in border security, we understand the issue of more discipline in the workplace, but along with that we're back to that third leg of the stool. We have to have reform of our visa programs. We don't have adequate visa programs in agriculture. The visa is wholly inadequate to supply our labor needs in a timely basis when we need them, and so employers must do their responsibility. Employers have to be responsible, but the federal government has to be responsible as well and provide us legal avenues to reliable labor pools.

>>José Cárdenas:
And professor, is that the problem with the proposals that say on day one let's deport all of the people who are here without the proper documents, and then we'll let them back in under legal regime? As I understand it, what we have right now wouldn't bring enough people in to fill all our needs.

>> Dr. William Boyes:
Absolutely. There's two aspects to that question. One is, we never talk about the costs of trying to grab 11 million, whatever the number is, people and move them back. That's an enormous cost. But you're exactly right, if you take the visa categories and you look at those that are not allocated to skilled labor or family members, you get down to something like 2,000, 1,000 unskilled laborers can come in through a regular visa program. 1,000, even --


>>José Cárdenas:
A year?

>> Dr. William Boyes:
A yeah, yeah. It's 12,000 you're talking --

>>José Cárdenas:
It doesn't exactly replace 11 million.

>> Dr. William Boyes:
Absolutely. It doesn't replace anything close to any industry. The law, the law itself is broken. We're calling people law breakers, which they are because the law itself is broken. We've got to change the visa program.


>>José Cárdenas:
And some of those law breakers, Joe, people are saying are the employers. There are laws on the books right now about prohibiting employment of people without the proper documentation. What is going on, particularly in your industry in terms of compliance?

>> Joe Sigg:
First of all, I'm not going to defend anyone who knowingly breaks the law. I'm not going to defends anyone who employs people off the books, so to speak. But what we have is, it's a very -- it's a variant of don't ask, don't tell. The prospective employee brings documents forward, the employer must accept the documents, in fact really is in no position to question them --


>> José Cárdenas:
Why is that?

>> Joe Sigg:
Well, how are you going to question -- you have no way of knowing whether the documents are reliable. Employers aren't document experts. So I ask a set of questions of one person, and I don't ask them in exactly the same way of someone else, I'm inviting the department of justice to visit with me about a discrimination issue. So what we have is a proliferation of fraudulent documents, there's no question about that, and in many cases it takes a long time for the government to catch up with them. I know an employer here in the phoenix area, his -- he's an agricultural employer, about 140 employees, and well over 70% of his work force has been with him for over five years. He gets a social security mismatch letter finding with this long tenured employees finding 60% of his work force have social security mismatches. There's no way for the employer to determine whether the documents are valid on the spot, so asking questions is just going to invite trouble for him. So, again, it's don't ask, don't tell, and the problem just continues to get bigger and bigger.

>> José Cárdenas:
And you talked about social security mismatches, Professor Boyes, I've seen data suggesting that precisely because of that one of the big benefits to the United States of unlawful immigration is you have all these people putting money into our social security system that they're never going to get back, and that's actually a huge benefit to the rest of us.

>> Dr. William Boyes:
Absolutely. It's actually a staggering number. It's called the suspension file, and I think it's up to 50 billion dollars now. It's a huge number. And then you talk about taxes being paid in general, other than social security, and again, those taxes are used for all kinds of things, but not necessarily for the individual that's paying the taxes.

>>José Cárdenas:
Let's talk about that three-legged school that -- stool that Joe was talking about, one of them being security. A lot of talk of security post-9-11. Is that a legitimate reason to do some of the things that are being proposed in some of the more harsher proposals in congress?

>> Dr. William Boyes:
One of the things as an economist I always try to focus on are the costs and benefits of particular actions. And if I look at the costs of the enforcement in general of some of the proposals that I've seen, they're staggering. I mean, they'll override the war on drugs, which is itself staggering. And will override the Iraq war, which is staggering. But if you take -- if you take the expenditures and build walls and put military on the border, you're not going to solve the problem.

>>José Cárdenas:
We're going to have to end our discussion on that point. Thank you both for joining us on "Horizonte." Pleased to have you.

>> Joe Sigg:
Thank you.

>> José Cárdenas:
The Arizona lottery has generated more than $1.8 billion since 1981. From the sale of lottery tickets, the agency funds community programs and public projects in various areas. Last month Governor Napolitano named a new director of the Arizona lottery. With us tonight is the new director, Art Macias Jr. Art, thank you for joining us on "Horizonte."

>> Art Macias Jr.:
Great to be here with you.

>> José Cárdenas:
Tell us about your background.

>> Art Macias Jr.:
I was born in Mexico, moved to Douglas when I was three years old, and really consider myself an Arizona native. Grew up in Douglas, and that's what's great about the governor, she's really making the cabinet look like Arizona, and really hiring qualified individuals --

>> José Cárdenas:
Between Douglas and getting to the governor's office, you went off to Brandice, where you got your degree?

>> Art Macias Jr.:
Majored in economics, and then went off on a rotary and was doctoral scholarship and did a masters in international management.

>> José Cárdenas:
In France .

>> Art Macias Jr.:
In France, in Paris.

>>José Cárdenas:
So you need to revise the press release the governor's office put out which described you as bicultural and bilingual. It should be tri cultural.

>> Art Macias Jr.:
That's right. After having gone through an accounting course in French, I think that should reflect that. It was quite a challenge.

>> José Cárdenas:
I understand you also speak the language of economic development having served in that kind of position with the city of Douglas. Tell us about that.

>> Art Macias Jr.:
I served there for six years at the city of Douglas. And really was an introduction to the lottery to a certain extent, looking back. In that we applied for a number of heritage grants and were able to build parks in the city of Douglas, and the Heritage Fund is funded by the lottery. So we were in a sense a beneficiary of where I'm at now. So fully intend to continue to make sure the sales out of there to keep projects like that afloat.

>> José Cárdenas:
You served your first cabinet position in this administration was as director of weights and measures.

>> Art Macias Jr.:
Yes.

>> José Cárdenas:
Tell us about that position.

>> Art Macias Jr.:
Three years ago the governor called and very appreciative of the opportunity to come up and lead what really is the leading consumer protection agency in the state of Arizona. And particularly the fuel supply interruption issue that we had in the summer of --

>> José Cárdenas:
It kind of thrust you into some problems that the agency didn't have before.

>> Art Macias Jr.:
It was baptism by fire, essentially. But because of the agency and because we were -- we stepped up to the plate and had good relationships with the petroleum industry, we were able to supply the governor with good information to make decisions and reassure the public that in subsequent instances that there was plenty of gas available, not to panic, and so we were able to have some successes there.

>>José Cárdenas:
Your new position, you're replacing Katie Boushart, she's off to the chamber of commerce in Phoenix.

>> Art Macias Jr.:
She leaves quite a legacy to fill. I don't think -- they're probably big boots that are left to fill.

>>José Cárdenas:
This is actually been one of the most successful years for the lottery as I understand.

>> Art Macias Jr.:
Absolutely. We hit close to $400 million, and there's a good team in place there. We're already looking to hit the half billion dollar mark.

>> José Cárdenas:
And this is an agency, what, 10 times the budget or maybe even 20 times the budget you had at -- at weights and measures?

>> Art Macias Jr.:
That's correct. It's -- from a $3 million budget to a $60 million budget, and again, the $400 million in sales. But really what we had at weights and measures that really helps in this capacity now is that we formed very good relationships with the retailers while we were at weights and measures. We regulated that industry, and now we get to continue that partnership because we really depend on those retails for sales.

>>José Cárdenas:
Tell us where all the funds generated by the lottery go. What kinds of programs does it fund?

>> Art Macias Jr.:
Lottery really funds the Heritage Fund, the general fund, of which is a significant percentage goes towards education. There's the local transportation assistance fund, which helps local communities with transportation programs. There's a county assistance fund, so counties benefit. It really is rather broad. And really virtually every community in Arizona benefits from the lottery.

>>José Cárdenas:
Is that true in particular the Hispanic community?

>> Art Macias Jr.:
Widespread. The projects that I talked about down in Douglas, 96% Hispanic in Douglas and certainly that community benefitted from those projects.

>>José Cárdenas:
Art, we wish you the best in your new position. We know you'll do a good job and look forward to talking to you again on "Horizonte."

>> Art Marcias Jr:
Thank you.

>> José Cárdenas:
Tonight we bring you "Horizonte" sounds of Cultura SOC. Once a month we'll bring you stories about culture, people, and events in the community. Tonight Nadine Arroyo introduces us to a Phoenix Suns player from Latin America, Leandro Barbosa.

>> This rookie is one of the Phoenix Suns' rising players taking the valley by storm, gaining more playing time and hanging with the best of them. He's Leandro Barbosa, one of five Brazilian players in the NBA, and one of 15 Latinos playing professional basketball. We recently caught up with him during a practice session at America West arena. We talked about his family, his dreams, about learning a new language, and his career.

>> Leandro Barbosa:
I love it here, my first time I got here I really loved playing with the Suns, they talk to me a lot, and I think this is very good for me.

>> Nadine Arroyo:
He says playing in the NBA is a dream come true. He remembers as a child playing soccer, like many Latin American children, realizing he was only one of hundreds of soccer players, he decided to play basketball instead. With the help of his oldest brother, he developed a love for the game as well as a real talented.

>> Leandro Barbosa:
My brother, he is the one getting a lot of things to me for me can play basketball. He did a lot of bad things with me, but I appreciate that he did that to me because now I'm here. If he didn't do that with me before when I was little, maybe I couldn't be here. But I'm here, but he's also my brother, I love him.

>> Nadine Arroyo:
And talent he has indeed. Leandro was the second Brazilian player selected in the first round in consecutive drafts. In his first start, he scored a Suns' rookie record 27 points, and set a new rookie record with three-pointers in 10 consecutive games and was ranked in the top 10 among the NBA rookies in scoring, assists, both field goal and three-point field goal percentages, three-point field goals made and finally, steals. To him what's important is working hard and being part of a team. A team and a leader, he says, are true inspirations.

>> Leandro Barbosa:
That being awesome for me, being -- learning a lot of things with Nash, with the other players, and I feel really comfortable playing with him, and he's helping me a lot, he makes everybody feel comfortable on the court. He makes a play for everybody, and I think this is awesome. There's no way you can get -- you can be like that.

>> Nadine Arroyo:
He says coming to the U.S. was challenging. First on the list, learn to be speak English. A feat he accomplished in just one year. His secret --

>> Leandro Barbosa:
After practice I would sleep, and tonight we watch a movie, and after movie we learn a little bit, me and he talk a little bit, and then it's good. Now I -- it is for me understand English.

>> Nadine Arroyo:
His other challenge -- missing home.

>> Leandro Barbosa:
My momma, I talk every day with her. She's back in Brazil. It's also, it's sad because she's not here, and she knows I'm having a great season, and she wanted to be here, but she has a couple things to take care of in Brazil, so she cannot be here. But she is having a lot of fun too back in Brazil. She always tell me for me, go for it, play, really hustle, and do what you're going to do, play really hard every time, every single time, every single day, whatever.

>> Nadine Arroyo:
So what does a kid from a humble background say about playing professional basketball in a different country?

>> Leandro Barbosa:
Sometimes I get nervous, I'm not going to tell you guys I'm not getting nervous, because sometimes I do. But what I'm trying to do when I get there is just working hard and work more harder than my guide, like I play against, play, and go for it. I love it. I love it. Seriously. I don't know how to explain it, but I really love the situation, and be here, play with a lot of players, something that I'm -- I don't even know when I was little, and now I'm here. It's awesome to me.

>> Nadine Arroyo:
And if Barbosa is not what's at the America West Arena this month, why not enjoy another Latino sensation there, the Mariachi Christmas festival. Enjoy an evening of Christmas musical tradition of old Mexico at the 14th annual mariachi Christmas festival on December 10. Among the many performances from some of the world's best groups, and a special performance by the world renowned group featuring over 600 dancers and performers. And capping off the evening will be multi Grammy winner Vicky Carr and Mexican recording artists. And at ASU's Gavin playhouse, a fall concert featuring the work of Ecuadorian choreographer. This event runs through Saturday. The concert entitled, Expanded Borders, will feature the choreographed piece "Sleeping in the Lightning Field," a work created specifically for the concert and will include dancers from ASU's Dance Arizona repertory theater dance company. And that's "Horizonte SOC".

>>José Cárdenas:
If you have an idea for "Horizonte SOC", you can email us, just go to our website, www.azpbs.org and click on "Horizonte." You will also find transcripts and information on upcoming shows. That's our show for tonight. "Horizonte" will not be seen next week, but will return in two weeks from tonight. For all of us here at "Horizonte," have a good evening.

Art Macias Jr.: Director, Arizona Lottery ;

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