Gloria Steinem: The Extended Interview

The extended interview with the feminist icon, Gloria Steinem.

Transcript:

>>>Ted Simons:
Tonight on "Horizon", how will Arizona's employer sanctions law affect certain businesses? We continue our series on the new regulations and talk about potential economic impacts in Arizona. Plus, a conversation with Gloria Steinem, who talks about feminism for the 21st century. Those stories next on "Horizon."

>>Announcer:
"Horizon" is made possible by contributions from the friends of eight, members of your Arizona PBS station. Thank you.

>>Ted Simons:
Hello and welcome to "Horizon." I'm Ted Simons. This week we are examining Arizona's controversial new employer sanctions law. Tonight, in part two of our four part series, we explore the potential economic impact of the law. In a moment, a discussion about that with the chairman of Arizona's Republican Party and the president of the Arizona chamber of commerce. First, Merry Lucero looks at one business that says due to the law, they will be trimming back.

>> Merry Lucero:
In the valley, we love our manicured landscaping. The landscape industry relies heavily on dependable affordable labor. Xeriscapes Unlimited has been landscaping in the Valley for 24 years. They have 60 employees on the payroll. Owner Rod Pappas is carefully examining the new regulations.

>>Rod Pappas:
Once I saw the law in writing, I questioned how are they going to enforce it? Putting you out of business for ten days or putting you out of business for good, I can see that could probably happen, especially those of us with a state license, but what I didn't realize the impact it was going to have on some of my employees, and some of my fellow workers.

>>Merry Lucero:
He says the new employer sanctions law has many of his employees intimidated.

>>Rod Pappas:
They have become frightened over the law. They don't know what affect it will have on them so a lot of them are making preparations to go back to Mexico for good. Some are selling their cars, homes, packing up their families and making arrangements to go back. They figure it is the end of their tenure here in the United States.

>>Merry Lucero:
And some of his employees have a long tenure here in the United States like Eduardo, who asked us not to show his face. He has been here for 15 years, and worked for Xeriscapes for eight. He is now a supervisor.

>>Eduardo:
I come here to live a better life. I find it. I got a nice family. I got a nice work, so, I would like to stay. I want to stay.

>>Merry Lucero:
Eduardo has a wife and three children and a home here in the valley. The new law has him and others afraid.

>>Eduardo:
It is hard to decide what they are going to do, what we are going to do. Because basically we have got our life here, all of our roots are here, and we don't know if we are going to leave, to get caught up. We don't know, you know, what -- what is going to happen to my family, to my house, to everything.

>>Merry Lucero:
At this time, he is not going back to Mexico.

>>Eduardo:
I will stay. I am not planning to leave. Everybody got afraid. We don't know what is going to happen, but according to the laws, it is going to -- I think it is going to be fine. It is not going to affect the people working right now. I think it will be hard for people that are going to look for work.

>>Merry Lucero:
Eduardo is correct. The law focuses on new hires and even more so on the employer.

>>Rod Pappas:
The law doesn't apply as much to employees as it does to the employer. The employers that knowingly and intentionally hire illegals are the ones that are basically on the chopping board right now.

>>Merry Lucero:
Pappas says the biggest problem is replacing workers who leave because of the law with people who have the same experience and work ethic.

>>Rod Pappas:
The first thing we run into is a problem getting them to show up to work. A lot of times we joke about it, and offer an incentive. If you make it to work on time for the first week, we will give you a $50 signing bonus. There is these running jokes that we have around the office, sometimes running bets, is Jack Smith going to show up for work tomorrow, what do you think? Yes or no.

>>Merry Lucero:
And he will have to pay higher wages to new workers, drivers and supervisors.

>>Rod Pappas:
Whether I hire someone who appears to be legal or someone who appears to be not legal are two separate issues. I will probably have the same documentation and the same i-9 form for each one, but if you want to use a gut feeling, those that come in that I am 99% sure that they are qualified to work here are going to cost more money, and they know it. So to answer your question, it will have an impact on my business. It will change my bottom line as much as 30 to 35%. Of course we will pass that on to the consumer.

>>Merry Lucero:
Affordable landscaping may soon be a thing of the past. Then we may be seeing more people doing their own yard work.

>>Ted Simons:
Here to talk about Arizona's employer sanctions law, Randy Pullen, chairman of the Arizona Republican Party, and Glenn Hamer, president and CEO of the Arizona Chamber of Commerce and Industry. Gentlemen, thank you so much for joining us.
Randy let's start with you. The business he just saw. His concerns, do you think those are typical?

>>Randy Pullen:
I think those are typical of what you will see out in the marketplace. I feel for Eduardo, he is an illegal alien who has been here and had a good life, and his life is going to change, but unfortunately that is the way the system works, and the laws need to be enforced. If Mexico has a problem, we shouldn't be solving their problems here by bringing literally their populous here to this state, country, in order to give them a decent job. It is an issue in Mexico that needs to be addressed as much as anything.

>>Ted Simons:
In terms of economic impact here in Arizona, do you see enough of those companies going to be affected like this, are you concerned about the economic impact?

>>Randy Pullen:
Let's talk about what the cost is right now to have the illegal aliens that we have here right now. In excess of a thousand dollars per year per household is the cost to pay for all of services and benefits that are provided to illegal aliens in the state of Arizona. That cost will eventually go down. At the same time there will be additional costs. Surely it is going to cost more for landscaping, but they're going to be legal residents here. I already know, I talked to the African American community, and they told me that the cost of dry walling in Arizona has decreased in what they paid out to employees because basically a lot of African Americans and a lot of other employees were replaced by illegal aliens who would do the work for $10 an hour, instead of $16 or 19 an hour. There will be changes in our economy. No doubt about that. At the end of the day, it is all for the best in terms of making sure that we have legal workers working here in Arizona, and quite frankly that they are getting paid a reasonable wage for the work they're doing.

>>Ted Simons:
Glenn, that reasonable wage aspect is always a part of that argument, in that some say pay these people, or pay these jobs what they're worth, you will get Arizonans, Americans in general doing these jobs.

>>Glenn Hamer:
The issue here is not one of the wages being paid. Arizona right now has an unemployment rate of about 3.7%. 5% is considered full employment. So, right now we're considerably underneath the national average. This is really a case of there not being enough workers in Arizona, and I can't fault any state lawmakers for that. The responsibility really rests with the United States congress and the president to set market-based caps so that we can get the skilled and unskilled labor we need in this country to do essential jobs.

>>Ted Simons:
The federal government obviously is not doing the job, they are not responding, and certainly not in a timely fashion. Do you just say let's just keep waiting?

>>Glenn Hamer:
Well, I don't know if you say let's just keep waiting, but I don't believe a good response is let's shoot ourselves in the foot. I don't believe a good response is let's taking action that probably exceeds constitutional boundaries. My response would be we need the federal government to step up. There are some things that the state can do. We simply believe with this new law hp-2779 the state has gone too far.

>>Glenn Hamer:
Do you think randy, as far as this law, people really don't know, are you confident that the economic impacts will be something that the state can handle?

>>Randy Pullen:
Well, you know, the Glenn Hamer's of the world said if we did away with slavery that our economy would collapse. Obviously our economy didn't collapse. The point is you hear this all of the time, nay sayers saying the sky is falling, the sky is falling. We can't deal with the problems. The number Glenn used is correct, that is our unemployment rate here in Arizona. The facts are if you break it up into skilled workers versus unskilled workers, what you find out is our unemployment rate for unskilled workers exceeds 6%. For skilled workers, less than 1%. It is in the skilled workers, not the unskilled workers and the work force, that is the real issue that we deal with.

>>Glenn Hamer:
That is simply not accurate. Just anyone who takes a stroll around phoenix can tell there is a lot of entry level positions where the wage is already far above $10 an hour. This is not an issue of individuals being improperly compensated. This is an issue that has more to do with simply a lack of necessary labor, and in terms of will this bill; will this effort have a positive impact on the economy? I have not heard a single economist that has suggested that it will. I have heard very respected economists from Arizona State University, and Elliott Pollock and others who said this will have a harmful impact on the state's economy, and the sponsor of the bill likes to brag that this will down-size Arizona's economy. I am not sure how that is a positive development.

>>Ted Simons:
Randy, are you saying there could be a down-sizing but that is not necessarily a bad thing?

>>Randy Pullen:
I think there is a period of adjustment that is going to go on. We have a lot of employers in this state, unskilled labor specifically, that have gotten used to using illegal aliens in their work force, and they are going to have to readjust, just like we saw on the tape. I am going to find people to do the work. I will have to pay more and have other issues I will have to deal with, but I can get people to do the work. He didn't seem too concerned about it. That is the way it is going to be approached. It is probably going to spur -- we will have jobs opening up, wages increasing, and there will be people who want to move to Arizona already from other states that will move all of the faster here.

>>Ted Simons:
If that were to happen, until then you still have a lot of small business owners who are saying we try to hire folks that are legal. They don't show up on time. They don't work as hard as the folks who may or may not be illegal. You can see their viewpoint.

>>Randy Pullen:
I hear that. I don't know if that is necessarily true, quite frankly. I think in some cases I think it might be true. In other cases it is probably not true. I think Americans in general work very hard as a people. I expect that in this case we will find that Americans will work very hard and will do the work that is available to do.

>> What do you think, Glenn, do you think those folks will be there once the law takes effect?

>>Glenn Hamer:
We're playing Russian roulette with the economy. It is a great state to live in, a great state to work in, a great state to bring up one's family. We're tinkering with a formula that has worked well for sometime. This is not just a low scale issue. 59% of engineers who graduate from the major Arizona universities are foreign born. 75% of the PhD's are foreign born. So, this is an issue that cuts across all different labor sectors.

>>Randy Pullen:
But that is my point, that 1% of skilled workers are, in fact, unemployed. It is a very, very tight labor market for skilled workers.

>>Ted Simons:
Gentlemen, good discussion. Thanks for joining us.

>>>Ted Simons:
She is a writer, editor, and activist who has been speaking out on issues of equality for more than 40 years. Gloria Steinem was recently in our state as part of the ASU's women and gender studies "women of the world" lectures. She spoke about feminism for the 21st century. Merry Lucero sat down with Ms. Steinem to talk about that and other issues.

>> Thanks for sitting down and talking with me today. You're here to give a lecture through the ASU women and gender studies and to talk about feminism for the 21st century. In a lot of ways that is thought of a movement in the 60s and 70s. Where is feminism in the 21st century? Has it taken on another shape?

>>Gloria Steinem:
Peace is thought of as a movement of the 60s, and it is not. Similarly feminism is thought of as a movement from the 60s. I think it is one of the more benign ways of being against it. To say that it is over. It used to be necessary but it is not anymore. But it is actually bigger than it has ever been. If you look at a simple level of how many women self-identify as feminists, there are hugely more now. There were like three or four of us crazy people before. Now it is a huge, huge majority. And it is actually in public opinion polls more young women who identify as feminists than older women.

>>Merry Lucero:
How does a woman identify herself as a feminist? How would I know if I am a feminist?

>>Gloria Steinem:
Well, as someone once famously said, any time you are not a doormat. Any time you stand up for yourself and for other women for fairness. It is about fairness, it is about all of us being human beings and having all human qualities. There are many people who do this without calling themselves feminists. There are many people who call themselves womenists, which is another great word. It isn't to say that we need to call ourselves the same word, but the principle of standing up for fairness and justice and the full humanity of women and men is what is important.

>>Merry Lucero:
Looking outside of the culture in the United States, a lot of recent news in a couple of different cultural areas. One, the war in Iraq has put into focus women in the Muslim world, and women in the United States are seeing for the first time how women are treated in Muslim cultures. What do you think we can learn from that?

>>Gloria Steinem:
Well, there have been for a long time -- ever since the national women's conference in Houston in '77, there has been great connections among women of different cultures and different countries. So, I think it is not news. But I think what is most infuriating to those of us in this country now is that the administration is using the cosmetic of -- as if they cared about women in Afghanistan or in Iraq whose situation they have made tangibly worse, and say they are acting on behalf of equality. It is one thing to have a situation. It is something else to have it lied about.

>>Merry Lucero:
Closer to home here in the United States, another news story, the Fundamentalists Church Of Latter Day Saints, the trial of Warren Jeffs and we see how women in that culture live their lives. Your thoughts on that and where should society's role be in getting involved in that and coming to the aid of the women and the children in the FLDS community?

>>Gloria Steinem:
We should certainly come to their aid. The Mormon Church per se doesn't agree with -- this is a group out there that is not only approving of plural marriages -- it has come to life because the women have rebelled. One thing that made the difference was one of the women was willing to come forward at risk of her life and testify against him.

>>Merry Lucero:
Women in politics, here in Arizona, we have a female governor that enjoys very strong public opinion.

>>Gloria Steinem:
Yes, it is great. I'm happy to be in Arizona for many reasons, including that one.

>>Merry Lucero:
For a while we had the fab five, five state positions---all women. Nancy Pelosi, speaker of the house, we have a viable woman presidential candidate for the first time. What does that say for strides for women in powerful political positions?

>>Gloria Steinem:
It says good, it is progress. And it says it is long overdo. There are 20 chiefs of state in the world now, and we're going to be not among the last on the block, but I think we're number 68th or something in the world in political representation of women. I think there are reasons for that. Wherever there is more power, there is more competition for that power. And in a way where you have a stronger caster class system, being a woman is mitigated by her caster class -- because family was so important, it diminished the handicap of being a female. I think that when we finally get a woman here as chief of state and also in all kinds of other positions, she is more likely to really represent the majority of the country and the majority of women.

>>Merry Lucero:
Is the U.S., as a whole, ready for a woman president?

>>Gloria Steinem:
The U.S. is so much more ready than Washington. You have no idea. The average person, you know, in my experience, much more likely to care about how this is going to affect their lives and what they say and what their character is and who they are than Washington power brokers who, some of whom I think are really -- I don't know if it is conscious or unconscious, but they have struggled so hard to get there, and now if a woman can do it, how good can it be? They feel it devalues the thing they are searching for, competing for. I have more faith in the average voter than the average Washington pundit.

>>Merry Lucero:
Has there been, in your view, a defining moment in the women's movement, to this point, to date, something that really you can say this is the one thing?

>>Gloria Steinem:
Well, I think that is very hard. Every woman who is listening, whatever the defining moment was for her, was the defining moment. We're not trying to dictate each other's defining moments. I suppose that because the reason we're in this jam in the first place is the desire to control reproduction, decide how many workers, soldiers, what race, what class they should be, that the most defining, the deepest defining moments have related to reproductive freedom, have related to women being able to say I'm going to decide for myself to have or not to have children.

>>Merry Lucero:
What about in your career?

>>Gloria Steinem:
A defining moment?

>>Merry Lucero:
Uh-hmm.

>>Gloria Steinem:
Well, I mean, in a way I guess my defining moment as a writer was -- relates to what I was just saying, not surprisingly, I guess, because I was a journalist, and freelancing for lots of publications, and I don't know, working for television, I helped to start New York magazine, a political columnist there. I was still a little bit imitating my totally male colleagues. They would say to me, oh, you write like a man. I would say oh, thank you. That is where my head was. Then I went to cover an abortion hearing that was not an official one at all, it was a protest against a New York state legislature's hearing. This is before roe v wade. They invited 14 men and one nun to testify. A group of fairly early feminists downtown met in a church basement and said, wait a minute. Let's hear from women who had this experience, and people came up to testify. To be able to have a safe -- it wasn't safe -- to be able to have any kind of procedure. I was there as a reporter listening. I had never heard women tell the truth in public about something that only concerned women.

>>Merry Lucero:
You are obviously still very active traveling and lecturing. What are you writing now? What are you working on?

>>Gloria Steinem:
That is a good question. Why am I not home now writing is a good question. (laughs)

>>Merry Lucero:
You are here lecturing. (laughs)

>>Gloria Steinem:
I have been working for sometime over time, but only three instances really on a book that is an on-the-road book, about being on the road as a feminist organizer for 35 years. But I am on the road so I end up not writing the book. It matters to me very much. I think the country is so different from the impression we get in the mass media, which often says things like the American people, as if there were one. Huge diversity out there. All kinds of solutions and interests and vitality, you know, bubbling up everywhere that doesn't get reported. So, rather than just come home and, as I always do and say to my friends, this is going on, that is going on, I decided that it was important to write an on-the-road book, and on-the-road is usually masculine.

>>Merry Lucero:
Thank you so much for sitting down and talking with me today.

>>Gloria Steinem:
Thank you.

>>Ted Simons:
For an extended version of this interview, go to our web site. www.azpbs.org-slash-Horizon. Tomorrow, we continue our series on employer sanctions here in Arizona. For now, I am Ted Simons, have a great evening.