Education Roundtable

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Education experts discuss the state of public education in Arizona and President Obama’s “Race to the Top” education reform initiative that provides more than $4 billion in incentives for states and schools that meet certain requirements. Guests Eileen Sigmund, President of the Arizona Charter Schools Association; John Wright, President of the Arizona Education Association; and Dr. Marjorie Kaplan, Director of the “Beat the Odds Institute” for the Center for the Future of Arizona.

Ted Simons:
It's the start of a new school year and with it comes a new financial incentive for states to lead the way on education reform. President Barack Obama's "Race to the Top" initiative will award over $4 billion to states and school districts that meet certain criteria. It'll highlight returns in four areas. Internationally benchmarked standards and assessments, data-driven teaching, recruiting, retaining and rewarding effective teachers, and turning around our lowest performing schools. Joining me to talk about the incentive program is John Wright, president of the Arizona Education Association. Eileen Sigmund, president and C.E.O. of the Arizona Charter Schools Association, and Dr. Marjorie Kaplan, director of the Beat the Odds Institute, an arm of the Center for the Future of Arizona, which provides support and training for principals of high poverty, high minority School Districts. Thank you all for joining us on "Horizon."

John Wright:
Thank you.

Ted Simons:
Let's start with an overview of state education in Arizona. Eileen, how are we looking?

Eileen Sigmund:
We're starting out the school year with 500 charter schools, the first time we've topped the 500 mark. We're a bust in school choice and in a race to the top with a vibrant charter community.

Ted Simons:
State of education in Arizona?

John Wright:
I think we have a dichotomy going on because we're opening schools across the state, all the children are coming back and getting ready to learn and teachers ready to do heroic work. We have energy, enthusiasm, and innovation going on across the state. At the same time, the legislature has us under attack. They are just pulling the rug out from under our students as they walk into the schoolhouse door.

Ted Simons:
State of Education in Arizona?

Marjorie Kaplan:
I would say it's a mixed bag right now. We have results that said that students are doing very well on the AIMS testing, they are improved. The federal scores aren't doing as well. The ones who aren't doing as where will the students with challenges. That's who we're trying to educate in beat the odds, and the students on which we focus. We provide services in a very important area.

Ted Simons:
John mentioned what's going on down at the Capitol. Talk to us about the latest budget ideas and how that plays into education in Arizona.

Eileen Sigmund:
Well, the budget, we just saw the budget being released this afternoon. We understand that the votes may not be there. However, in charter schools we're in current-year funding. Which means -- and district schools are in prior-year funding. When we start next week, some have already started; we have to have our students enrolled. We get paid on the students enrolled. In district schools they are able to use the student count from last year. It's different in that, if we get cut in real-time, we have contracts out for teachers, we have a lot of different effects.

John Wright:
I wouldn't say that difference is really what the issue is here. The issue is that schools began charter or traditional, based on a budget passed in the first week in July. It includes funding for inflation and a number of other programs. Districts hired employees and started the school year based on that information. That's about to get pulled away at the whim of legislators who don't understand the impacts.

Ted Simons:
Talk about the students when these budget maneuvers are done.

Marjorie Kaplan:
This is providing a very unstable situation for the schools. We don't, in the Center for the Future of Arizona and the Beat the Odds Institute, we don't take political positions. But we recognize that the more stable a school is -- in fact, that's one of the practices of being able to help student achievement -- the more stable the school, the better it'll typically do.

Ted Simons:
It sounded like stability was something you were concerned about, especially with things changing and not knowing where you stand.

Eileen Sigmund:
Absolutely. I would agree with both statements, that we need to know. We did know as of July, and now it's being taken away. At least that's one of the proposals. We don't know where it'll be when it hits the Governor's desk.

Ted Simons:
You mentioned a number of schools excelling but the federal assessment is not so rosy.

John Wright:
It's much more sophisticated. We have a much more robust assessment of school performance than a single school or a single test one time a year, which is what No Child Left Behind does to us. Our tests take into account gain over time. In some of the schools and Beat the Odds schools, teachers are doing heroic work to move them a year, year and a half, two years in one academic year at schools, and that's recognized as being successful. The federal system doesn't recognize that as success.

Marjorie Kaplan:
The difference is that the state system is still -- yes, it is more robust and considers more indicators, and I agree with that. But it still works on averages as far as student performance. The federal government, whether we like it or not, is looking at subgroups of students. If certain minority groups or children who are disabled, high poverty students, if they don't do well, then a school doesn't do well.

Ted Simons:
Let's talk about "Race to the Top," the federal program here. In a nutshell, what exactly is it?

Eileen Sigmund:
It is a -- Well, remember, President Barack Obama is a community organizer at his heart, that's where he started. What he's trying to do is get the state to do a benchmark. Here he's picked four different buckets. And then how can we move forward as a state, collaboratively working together. It'll be submitted by the Governor, signed by Tom Horne and the State Board of Education chair.

Ted Simons:
And we mentioned the four standards, benchmark standards, teachers, principles, turning around struggling schools and good data. Where are we in those four criteria? And does the state have to work this to even qualify for the funds?

John Wright:
The federal government and the Department of Education want to look at that benchmark: Where are we? Two areas we're about on par with the rest of the states, and that's teacher quality. The two areas not on par, we have been seen as above par on data systems. They have ranked us at below par on charter school laws because there is a lack of accountability. One of the things Duncan wants to do is make sure we raise accountability for all schools and work towards those standards. Another key component is collaboration.

Ted Simons:
Charter schools, please.

Eileen Sigmund:
Dr. Kaplan knows this. We were part of a federal grant and we have a data system called the Arizona Growth Model where we track individual student data and how that student is growing. That is going into the accountability because we're using that on the five-year, 10-year, and 15-year renewal.

Marjorie Kaplan:
One of the concerns I have about "Race to the Top" is that there are requirements for the state to be able to participate. One of them is there needs to be adequate funding. They will look at whether the state increased funding, kept it the same or decreased it, compared to the previous year. It is important for Arizona to do well as far as funding, if we are to be even eligible for these funds.

Ted Simons:
If the funding for Arizona, let's say, right now the deal being talked about, goes back to 2009 levels, is that something the Feds are saying, not crazy about it?

Marjorie Kaplan:
They haven't put out their requests for proposals yet. But the rules are out for comment. In the comments we'll see how people respond. So these rules aren't final yet, but so far it looks as if you're going to at least have to have the same amount of funding.

John Wright:
It's a decision point on that issue. The guidance says that our 2009 funding had to be at the 2008 level. Cuts in January might have taken us below that. The other factors would be capital funding and construction to see exactly where we are. We might have lost that chance in January.

Ted Simons:
Does it make sense that states working toward reform to get more money for reform, as opposed to states that might need a boost to help them get on the right path -- in other words, the criteria seems like they are going after states that are doing certain thing. Seems like the states that aren't doing certain things need more help.

Eileen Sigmund:
I think that's going to be the criteria that they are looking at for the Department of Education. But this is a "Race to the Top." The Department of Education has their criteria out and when they are asking, is it going to be a political question decided in Washington, D.C., I think they are looking for the best states so those examples can be replicated to other states.

Ted Simons:
It is called "Race to the Top." In the race to the top are you leaving a lot of folks behind?

John Wright:
This is looking for innovation. There are hundreds of billions in other Department of Education programs to try to help low-performing schools, help recruit and train the best teachers and meet a number of other needs. These particular funds, at the discretion of the Secretary of Education, really are to look for innovation and reward and look for that wherever possible.

Ted Simons: Does that make sense to you that the states are delineated in this way?

Marjorie Kaplan:
In looking at the requirements, what comes clear is that this is definitely an incentive. So what I think they are trying to do is provide incentives for states to support education adequately. So they are saying, you know, you'll get this money if you can demonstrate that you're supportive of education. So it's kind of an inverse way to reach it. But I know why they are doing it.

Ted Simons:
The concept of an incentive, money, to encourage reform -- does that make sense?

Eileen Sigmund:
Absolutely.

John Wright:
There is a leadership team working right now with the director of the Center for the Future of Arizona that includes Greater Phoenix leadership, business interests, teacher and union interests, to talk about the Mark Tucker concepts of tough choices for tough times. Is there a way to change how we govern, manage and administer schools in a fundamental way, to help make sure our students are meeting international benchmarks and are ready to move on in postsecondary pursuits? We would like to look for some of those funds for that effort here in Arizona.

Ted Simons:
Financial incentives tied to education. Again, make sense?

Marjorie Kaplan:
I would say the government has a long history of doing that. One of the oldest programs is Title I, and that's a financial incentive on a large scale. It seems to work, you know, people do better when they get the funding and the support.

Eileen Sigmund:
The carrot, not the stick.

Ted Simons:
Okay. Let's say you are now in charge of all things education Arizona. You get to do one thing, one reform that will benefit the most students in Arizona and in their education. What would you do?

Eileen Sigmund:
I would look at data, and I would use the data, the student level growth data to target individual students' strengths and weaknesses and make sure that you're working for that 15 individual student as he progresses through our K-12 system.

Ted Simons:
Is there one reform you would like to see more than others?

John Wright:
There's no one reform that can make the difference. One of the key reforms is included in the "Race to the Top" incentive. One criteria is the extent to which leadership of the state's teacher union has demonstrated a strong commitment to their state's application. That means the state's leadership; they need to talk to the Arizona Education Association if their application is to be accepted.

Ted Simons:
One thing.

Marjorie Kaplan:
I would go as Eileen; data-driven instruction seems to make the biggest difference as far as increasing pupil achievement. We know teachers analyze, they teach, they look at the results from the students, and then they re-teach or recycle through. So they are constantly practicing diagnosis and prescription to see how the students are doing. Of the variables that we teach to the principles that we train, that one has made the greatest difference in pupil performance.

Ted Simons:
Optimistic about Arizona's future with education?

Eileen Sigmund:
Enthusiastic, yes.

John Wright:
Because of our educators, yes.

Marjorie Kaplan:
I'm always optimistic.

Ted Simons:
Thank you all for joining us tonight on "Horizon."

Eileen Sigmund:President, Arizona Charter Schools Association;John Wright:President, Arizona Education Association;Dr. Marjorie Kaplan: Director, "Beat the Odds Institute" for Center for the Future of Arizona;

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