Desert Discovery Center

For 20 years, the city of Scottsdale has been considering building the Desert Discovery Center at the main entrance to the McDowell Sonoran Preserve, a permanently protected desert habitat. The Desert Discovery Center will provide exhibits, programs and activities for those going to the preserve and will continuously provide data on living and thriving in desert areas throughout the world. Recently, the Scottsdale City Council voted to move the project forward, but it is opposed by the Protect Our Preserve organization, which believes the preserve should not have any development beyond trails and trailheads. Scottsdale vice mayor Kathy Littlefield, who opposes the Desert Discovery Center, and councilwoman Linda Milhaven, who is for the project, will discuss the issue.

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TED SIMONS: COMING UP NEXT ON "ARIZONA HORIZON" -- A DEBATE ON THE CONSTRUCTION OF A DESERT DISCOVERY CENTER IN THE MCDOWELL SONORAN PRESERVE AND WE'LL MEET A TRIATHLETE WHO DIDN'T LET A DISABILITY STOP HIM FROM COMPETITION. THOSE STORIES NEXT ON "ARIZONA HORIZON."

ANNOUNCER; "ARIZONA HORIZON" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY CONTRIBUTIONS FROM THE FRIENDS OF ARIZONA PBS. MEMBERS OF YOUR PBS STATION. THANK YOU!

TED SIMONS: GOOD EVENING AND WELCOME TO "ARIZONA HORIZON." I'M TED SIMONS. THE U.S. HOUSE TODAY PASSED A BILL THAT WOULD PREVENT A TAX INCREASE ON OUT OF POCKET MEDICAL EXPENSES FOR SENIORS AND MIDDLE CLASS FAMILIES. THE BILL WAS INTRODUCED BY ARIZONA CONGRESSWOMAN KYRSTEN SINEMA AND MARTHA MCSALLY.

KYRSTEN SINEMA: THIS BILL PROVIDES COMMON SENSE IN NEED OF RELIEVE FOR WORKING ARIZONA FAMILIES. IT LOWERS THE THRESHOLD FOR CLAIMING THE MEDICAL EXPENSE DEDUCTION BACK TO 75% AND PREVENTS A LUMING TAX HIGH ON ARIZONA SENIORS.

REP. MARTHA MCSALLY: THIS LEGISLATION IS NECESSARY TO PROVIDE RELIEF TO AMERICANS WITH EXPENSIVE MEDICAL BILLS. SINCE 2005 HEALTHCARE COSTS HAVE STEADILY RISEN FASTER THAN INFLATION IN EVERY YEAR EXCEPT ONE. ADDITIONALLY THE TREND TOWARD RISING HEALTH INSURANCE DEDUCTIBLES PREMIUMS AND PREMIUMS ARE LEAVING PEOPLE EXPOSE TO INCREASE OUT OF POCKET COST. WE SHOULD BE WORKING TO REDUCE THIS BURDEN, NOT MAKING IT WORSE.

TED SIMONS: THE BILL PASSED THE HOUSE WITH BIPARTISAN SUPPORT. ¶¶

TED SIMONS: TONIGHT'S EDITION OF ARIZONA SUSTAINABILITY LOOKS AT EFFORTS TO BUILD A RESEARCH AND LEARNING CENTER IN A PROTECTED DESERT AREA OF SCOTTSDALE. THE DESERT DISCOVERY CENTER WOULD BE LOCATED AT THE MAIN ENTRANCE TO MCDOWELL SONORAN PRESERVE, A PERMANENTLY PROTECTED DESERT HABITAT AND THE FACILITY WILL PROVIDE EXHIBITS, PROGRAMS AND ACTIVITIES FOR THOSE VISITING THE PRESERVE.. SCOTTSDALE CITY COUNCIL MOVED THE PROJECT FORWARD BUT CRITICS CONTINUE TO OPPOSE ANY DEVELOPMENT IN THE AREA BEYOND TRAILS AND TRAILHEADS. HERE'S NOW WITH BOTH SIDES OF THE ISSUE SCOTTSDALE COUNCILWOMAN LINDA MILHAVEN, WHO SUPPORTS THE DESERT DISCOVERY CENTER AND SCOTTSDALE'S VICE MAYOR, KATHY LITTLEFIELD, WHO OPPOSES THE PROJECT. GOOD TO HAVE YOU BOTH HERE THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

LINDA MILHAVEN: THANK YOU FOR HAVING US.

KATHY LITTLEFIELD: THANK YOU.

TED SIMONS: LETS LAY THE GROUND WORK HERE. WHAT EXACTLY IS THE MCDOWELL SONORAN PRESERVE.

LINDA MILHAVEN: SO THE MCDOWELL PRESERVE IS 30,000 ACRES IN THE NORTHERN PART OF OUR CITY. THE MCDOWELL MOUNTAINS ARE A CORNER STONE OF THAT. WE SPENT A BILLION DOLLARS OVER THE LAST 20 YEARS BUYING THAT LAND.

TED SIMONS: AND WHAT THE PROPOSED DESERT DISCOVERY CENTER.

KATHY LITTLEFIELD: THE DESERT DISCOVERY CENTER IS MANY THINGS TO MANY PEOPLE. ORIGINALLY, IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE A VERY SMALL LEARNING CENTER TO BE PLACED WITHIN A TRAILHEAD FOR PEOPLE TO COME AND LEARN ABOUT THE SONORAN PRESERVE. THEY WERE TO HAVE QUESTIONS ANSWERED. THERE'S A LITTLE FORUM PLACE WHERE THEY CAN SEE THE ANIMALS AND THE PLANTS THAT ARE GOING TO BE ON A WALK, OF COURSE, THEY GO THERE. AND STEWARDS TO ANSWER QUESTIONS AND TALK ABOUT WHAT THE PRESERVE IS S AND WHY IT IS. IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE SMALL, ABOUT ONE, MAYBE TWO ACRES AND IT WAS SUPPOSED TO HAVE NO COMMERCIAL DEVELOPMENT.

TED SIMONS: IS THAT HOW YOU REMEMBER THINGS?

LINDA MILHAVEN: WELL, THE DISCOVERY CENTER IS LIKE A VISITORS CENTER, SOMETHING SIMILAR TO WHAT WE MIGHT SEE AS A NATIONAL PARK AND ALSO A CENTER FOR EDUCATION AND RESEARCH. IN 2010, WAS THE LAST PROPOSAL AROUND THE DISCOVERY CENTER AND I THINK KATHY AND I AGREE, MANY IN THE COMMUNITY AGREE, THAT THE PROPOSAL IN 2010 WAS TOO BIG AND EXPENSIVE. SO A LOT HAS CHANGED IN THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS AND SO WE'VE AWARDED A CONTRACT TO A GROUP TO BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD AND SHARPEN THEIR PENCILS AND LOOK FOR PRIVATE PARTNERSHIPS TO HELP MAKE THE CENTER POSSIBLE AND THAT'S THE WORK HAPPENING NOW.

TED SIMONS: THE IDEA THIS WAS TOO BIG OF A PROJECT. I SAW 30-ACRE FOOTPRINT REPORTED IN PLACES. THAT 30 ACRES FOOT PRINT, IS THAT STILL ALIVE?

LINDA MILHAVEN: THAT'S PART OF THE OLD PROPOSAL. WE'LL SEE NEXT FALL IN 2017, WE WILL SEE HOW BIG IT IS, BUT TO GIVE YOU SOME CONTEXT, 30 ACRES IS ONE-TENTH OF 1% OF THE DESERT WE'VE PRESERVED.

TED SIMONS: AND YET OPPONENTS WILL SAY IT'S ALSO ABOUT THE SIZE OF THE UNIVERSITY OF PHOENIX STADIUM FOOT PRINT, WHICH SEEMS BIG.

LINDA MILHAVEN: WE'LL THEN WE WILL SEE IF IT TURNS OUT THAT BIG, BUT WE ARE STILL - IT'S A WORKING PROGRESS.

TED SIMONS: WHY IS THIS NOT A GOOD THING FOR SCOTTSDALE?

KATHY LITTLEFIELD: BECAUSE OF THE PRESERVE. THE PRESERVE WAS NEVER MEANT TO BE A TOURIST ATTRACTION. THE SOLE AND ONLY PURPOSE OF THE PRESERVE IS TO PRESERVE THE LAND. AND THE ANIMALS AND THE PLANTS THAT LIVE WITHIN IT. TO DO SOMETHING LIKE THIS REQUIRES SO MANY CHANGES TO WHAT WE HAVE IN AN ORDINANCE, AND LET ME BACK UP A LITTLE BIT. THE LAND THAT WE BOUGHT -- AND IT'S ABOUT 30,000 ACRES, THE CITIZENS BOUGHT AND PAID FOR AFTER FIVE SEPARATE VOTES APPROVING THE INCREASE IN SALES TAX TO PURCHASE THIS LAND. THE LAND WAS PURCHASED FOR PRESERVATION. TO KEEP IT IN ITS NATURAL STATE. SO THAT NO COMMERCIAL DEVELOPMENT WOULD EVER BE ON IT. THAT LAND IS PROTECTED BY THE PRESERVE ORDINANCE. AND THE ORDINANCE HAS 32 DIFFERENT TERMS AND CONDITIONS WITHIN IT THAT BIND THE LAND AS TO THE USES IT CAN AND CANNOT BE DONE ON IT. TO BUILD THE DESERT DISCOVERY CENTER VIOLATES MANY OF THOSE TERMS.

TED SIMONS: DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT.

LINDA MILHAVEN: NO, NO. AND SEVERAL THINGS, UM, FOLKS WHO BILLED IT AS COMMERCIAL DEVELOPMENT. IF WE BUILD A VISITOR AND EDUCATION CENTER, WE MIGHT CHARGE ADMISSION, WE MIGHT HAVE A GIFT SHOP, WE MIGHT HAVE A SNACK SHOP. THAT MAY BE WHAT PEOPLE CONSIDER COMMERCIALIZATION BUT I THINK THAT THE FOLKS WHO ARE OPPOSING THE DDC REALLY HAVE EXAGGERATED THE COMMERCIALIZATION OF IT. IT'S A VISITORS CENTER SIMILAR TO WHAT WE HAVE AT NATIONAL PARKS.

TED SIMONS: WHY NOT SHOWCASE THIS COMMUNITY ASSET IN THIS WAY?

KATHY LITTLEFIELD: WE ALREADY DO.

TED SIMONS: BUT IN THIS WAY?

KATHY LITTLEFIELD: BECAUSE IF WE DO THAT, THERE ARE TERMS THAT WOULD HAVE TO CHANGE. AND THOSE TERMS WOULD CHANGE FOR ALL OF THE LAND IN THE PRESERVE, NOT JUST AT THE GATEWAY, WHICH IS WHERE THEY WANT TO PUT THIS. IN OTHER WORDS, IF YOU HAVE A DESERT DISCOVERY CENTER AND IN THE CONTRACT FOR THE DDCS, THE DESERT DISCOVERY CENTER SCOTTSDALE, WHICH IS THE GROUP DOING THIS STUDY, THEY HAVE IT WRITTEN THAT THEY ARE GOING TO BE LOOKING AT COMMERCIAL DEVELOPMENT, THAT'S THE ONLY WAY THEY CAN MAKE THIS THING EVEN BECOME HALFWAY FINANCIALLY FEASIBLE. SO THEY'VE GOING TO HAVE A GIFT SHOP. THIS IS PART WHAT THEY'VE DESCRIBED. THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE A GIFT SHOP. A RESTAURANT THAT SERVES ALCOHOL. THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE NIGHT ENTERTAINMENT AND ACTIVITIES, WHICH IS TOTALLY AGAINST THE ORDINANCE, THEY'RE GOING TO CHARGE ADMISSION AND HAVE A SEPARATE ENTRYWAY IN THE GATEWAY TO JUST ALLOW PEOPLE WHO WANT TO GO TO THE DDC, SO THEY CAN CHARGE ADMISSION BECAUSE THE GATE WAY ITSELF, ALL OF OUR TRAILHEADS ARE TOTALLY FREE.

TED SIMONS: DOES THAT MAKE SENSE? IT SOUNDS LIKE A LOT OF THESE THINGS ARE VIOLATING WHAT THE PRESERVE WAS ORIGINALLY INTENDED TO DO?

LINDA MILHAVEN: WELL SOME OF THE PIECES COMING OUT OF 2010 PLAN, I DON'T SUPPORT A RESTAURANT OR LIQUOR LICENSE OR AMPLIFIED MUSIC, THAT WAS PART OF THE ORIGINAL PLAN BUT PART OF WHAT WE DON'T LIKE ABOUT THE ORIGINAL PLAN. IN TERMS OF WHETHER OR NOT IT'S ALLOWED, DO THE RULES ALLOW IT AND THE QUESTION IS WHETHER OR NOT WE WANT IT, WHETHER OR NOT THE RULES WANT IT. WE'VE HAD THREE CITY MANAGERS, TWO CITY ATTORNEYS AND A CITY TREASURER TELL US THAT THE RULES ALLOW US TO BUILD A RESEARCH, EDUCATIONAL CENTER AT THAT LOCATION. THE QUESTION IS TODAY, WHETHER OR NOT WE WANT TO BUILD IT AND I THINK THAT TODAY, WE DON'T KNOW YET BECAUSE WE'RE GOING BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD AND WE WON'T KNOW UNTIL AUGUST 2017 WHAT THE PROPOSAL IS.

TED SIMONS: BUT OPPONENTS SAY THAT BUILDING ANYTHING THERE DEGRADES THE EXPERIENCE OF THE PRESERVE, THE GREAT OUTDOORS, YOU'RE BUILDING SOMETHING AND ATTRACTING FOLKS AND THE NOISE AND LIGHTS AND THE WHOLE NINE YARDS DO THEY HAVE A POINT?

LINDA MILHAVEN: SO THE FOLKS WORRIED ABOUT PRESERVING THE PRESERVE IN MY MIND, THIS CENTER IS NECESSARIES TO PRESERVE THE PRESERVE. WE PROTECTED THE DESERT FOR FUTURE GENERATIONS BUT I THINK WE NEED TO ALSO NEED TO PROTECT THE DESERT FROM FUTURE GENERATIONS. THE BUDGET COMMISSION MEMBERS SUGGESTED WE SELL THE PRESERVE TO MAKE UP A FINANCIAL SHORT FALL. THAT MET WITH HORROR BUT WHO IS TO SAY THAT FUTURE GENERATIONS WON'T VALUE IT THE SAME WAY WE DO. CREATING A EDUCATION AND RESEARCH CENTER IS A WAY FOR FUTURE GENERATIONS TO UNDERSTAND HOW VALUABLE THIS IS SO THEY'LL PROTECT AND PRESERVE IS AS WELL.

TED SIMONS: DO YOU AGREE? IT ACTUALLY PROTECTS THE PRESERVE?

KATHY LITTLEFIELD: NO, I DON'T. IF WE REMOVE THE PROTECTION -- THERE'S QUITE A FEW THAT THE DDC WOULD REQUIRE TO FOR GO, WE REMOVE PART OF WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO DO, IS PRESERVE THE LAND. THEY WANT IT GRADE THIS OVER AND BUILD BUILDINGS. THAT'S NOT PRESERVING THE LAND. THEY WANT NIGHTLIFE. AND THESE ARE THINGS THAT THEY HAVE TOLD US, WE'VE BEEN TO THE OPEN HOUSES, WE'VE GONE TO THE OPEN MEETINGS AND LISTENED TO WHAT THEY HAD TO SAY. AND THEY HAVE ALWAYS CLAIMED THEY HAVE TO HAVE THIS IN ORDER TO MAKE IT WORK. SO IT'S NOT THAT WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY'RE GOING TO DO. WE KNOW WHAT THEY WANT AND THEY'RE GOING TO COME BACK AND ASK IT. EVERY OPEN HOUSE THEY HELD, THEY HAD THE PICTURES OF WHAT THEY WANT. THE 15 RAMADAS , THE BUILDING THEY WANT TO BUILT FOR THE ADMINISTRATION, THE STORES AND THEY HAD IT DOWN VERY DETAILED.

TED SIMONS: BUT IT'S CHANGED FROM 2010, COULD IT NOT CHANGE AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN UNTIL THEY GET IT RIGHT?

KATHY LITTLEFIELD: IT COULD BUT IT WON'T AND THE REASON IS THEY'RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME. THEY NEED TO GET THIS DONE, WE'RE BUYING THE LAST OF THE LAND PROBABLY THAT WE'RE GOING TO BE ABLE TO AFFORD. THERE WERE A FEW OTHER PIECES OF LAND ORIGINALLY IN THE PRESERVE BOUNDARY BUT IT'S GOING TO BE DIFFICULT TO BUY IT. SO WE NEED TO HAVE THE PRESERVE PROTECTED AND IF WE REMOVE ALL OF THESE -- IF WE ALLOW NIGHTLIFE, IF WE ALLOW THE COMMERCIAL DEVELOPMENT, THEN ALL OF THIS LAND IS NOW NOT A PRESERVE. IT'S A PARK. IT'S OPEN SPACE. AND IT CAN BE DEVELOP BECAUSE THERE WOULD BE NO PROTECTIONS AGAINST IT.

TED SIMONS: WHY NOT PLACE THE CENTER OUTSIDE OF THE PRESERVE. CLOSE, NEARBY. MAYBE IN DOWNTOWN -- I DON'T KNOW, SOMEWHERE. BUT TO GET THAT LEARNING AND EDUCATIONAL EXPERIENCE SOMEWHERE OUTSIDE OF THE PRESERVE?

LINDA MILHAVEN: TWO REASONS, I THINK. THE FIRST IS IF YOU GO IN AND LEARN ABOUT THE PRESERVE AND THEN YOU CAN STEP OUT AND SEE IT. A COUPLE YEARS BACK, I DID MY HOURS TO BECOME A STEWARD IN THE PRESERVE, YOU TAKE CLASSES AND GO ON HIKES. IT WAS FASCINATING TO ME TO LEARN THAT THE PLANTS AND ANIMALS IN THE DESERT ARE ADAPTED FROM TROPICAL CLIMATES AND MIGRATED HERE THAN ROCK FORMATIONS ARE A RESULT OF THE HISTORY, THE GEOLOGIC HISTORY OF HOW OUR CLIMATE HAS CHANGED. TO GO AND LEARN THAT IN A CENTER AND GO OUT AND STEP OUT AND BE IMMERSED, I THINK ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

TED SIMONS: SUPPORTERS SUGGEST THAT THERE ARE THOSE, THE HANDICAPPED AND ELDERLY AND THOSE NOT CAPABLE OF HIKING AND GOING INTO AN DISCOVERY AND LEARNING CENTER AT THE PRESERVE HELPS THEM EXPERIENCE THE DESERT. DO THEY HAVE A POINT.

KATHY LITTLEFIELD: YES, THEY DO, BUT WE ALREADY HAVE THAT. WE NOT ONLY HAVE ABLE-BODIES COMING IN, WE HAVE THE HANDICAPPED AND WE HAVE A TRAIL ALREADY CREATED AND IN PLACE THAT IS ADA ACCESSIBLE AND YOU CAN TAKE YOUR WHEELCHAIR AND GO THROUGH IT. IT'S BEAUTIFUL. I'VE DONE IT MYSELF. THE SCENE AT THE FAR WEST SIDE OF IT OVERLOOKING THE VALLEY, IT'S BEAUTIFUL. AND ALL OF THE PLANTS ARE LABELED AND THE STEWARDS WILL TAKE YOU THROUGH, IF THAT'S WHAT YOU WANT AND IT'S THERE AT THE GATEWAY AND IT'S NICE. IF WE WANT MORE, WELL, BUILD ANOTHER TRAIL THAT'S ADA ACCESSIBLE AT A GATE WAY WITHOUT BREAKING THE PRESERVE.

TED SIMONS: SUPPORTERS WILL SAY THIS WILL ATTRACT TOURISM DOLLAR TO THE CITY. NOT JUST THE AREA OR NEIGHBORHOOD, WE FINISHED DOCKING ABOUT HOW BIG SCOTTSDALE HAS BECOME, EVERYONE WOULD GET THE MONEY COMING FROM THE DISCOVERY CENTER. WHAT'S WRONG WITH THAT IDEA?

KATHY LITTLEFIELD: NOTHING AT ALL, BUT THAT'S NOT THE PURPOSE OF THE PRESERVE. IT'S NEVER BEEN SET TO BE A TOURIST ATTRACTION. IT'S A PRESERVE AND THE MAIN FOCUS, THE GOAL OF THE PRESERVE IS TO PRESERVE THE LAND, THE ANIMALS AND PLANTS. ALSO, THAT HAS BEEN TOUTED A GREAT DEAL THAT WE'RE GOING TO BRING ALL OF THIS MONEY INTO SCOTTSDALE, TOURIST AS PEOPLE AND THEY'LL COME AND SPEND ALL OF THEIR MONEY. RIGHT? IT'S NOT PROVEN. THEY HAD A STUDY DONE IN '13 CALLED "PLACES," AND SAID THEY HAD THERE'S NO PROOF A SINGLE TOURIST WILL COME JUST TO LOOK AT THE PRESERVE OTHER THAN WHO IS COMING TO SCOTTSDALE TO BEGIN WITH AND THEY'RE JUST GO TO SEE IT.

TED SIMONS: RESPOND TO THAT.

LINDA MILHAVEN: THE TOURISM COMMUNITY WAS A BIG SUPPORTER OF THE ORIGINAL VOTE AND CERTAINLY SOLD AS A TOURISM AMENITY AND THE TOURISM COMMUNITY HAS TOLD US IT'S A GAME CHANGER. FOR US TO STAY CURRENT WITH THE FUTURE TOURISTS THIS IS ONE OF THE THREE MOST IMPORTANT PRIORITIES IN ORDER TO MAINTAIN OUR ATTRACTION TO TOURISTS IN THE FUTURE.

TED SIMONS: THE IDEA THAT THIS VIOLATING THE PRIMARY PURPOSE OF THE PRESERVE, HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO THAT?

LINDA MILHAVEN: I'VE GONE BACK AND DONE A LOT OF RESEARCH AND COUNCILMAN LITTLEFIELD -- THE COUNCILOR'S HUSBAND, GAVE A SPEECH THAT IT WAS SOLD -- TO KEEP OUR TAXES LOW SO IT WAS ORIGINALLY SOLD TO CITIZENS AS IMPORTANT TO TOURISM AND THE TOURIST COMMUNITY SEES IT AS A IMPORTANT PRIORITY FOR THE FUTURE.

TED SIMONS: RUNNING OUT OF TIME. SHOULD THIS BASICALLY BE PUT TO A PUBLIC VOTE AND BE DONE WITH IT?

KATHY LITTLEFIELD: ABSOLUTELY. WE PROMISED THE CITIZENS THIS LAND WORK PRESERVED IN PERPETUITY. THEY WANT TO TAKE 30 ACRES OF IT AND I DON'T CARE IF IT'S 1% OR 50%, THEY'RE GOING TO GRADE IT OVER AND BUILD ON IT. THAT'S NOT PROTECTING THE LAND. IF WE COULD DO THAT, ALL OF THAT LAND STAYS OPEN FOR DEVELOPMENT. AND I DON'T THINK THAT'S RIGHT. THE CITIZENS HAVE PAID ALMOST A BILLION DOLLARS OF THEIR TAX MONEY TO BUY THIS LAND TO BUILD THE TRAILS AND BUILD THE TRAILHEADS. THEY DESERVE TO HAVE A VOICE IF WE CHANGE THE BASIC PRECEPT OF WHAT THE PRESERVE IS.

TED SIMONS: SHOULD THIS BE PUT TO A PUBLIC VOTE.

LINDA MILHAVEN: IT MIGHT MAKE SENSE TO PUT IT TO A VOTE BUT WE NEED TO BE SPECIFIC WHAT WE'RE ASKING PEOPLE TO DO. IF WE DECIDE WE DON'T LIKE THE PROPOSAL THEY CAME UP WITH AND DON'T WANT TO BUILD IT, THERE'S NO POINT IN HAVING A VOTE. I THINK WE NEED TO GET THE DETAILS AND IF IT'S SOMETHING WE NEED TO MOVE FORWARD WITH, IT WOULD MAKE SENSE TO TAKE IT TO A VOTE.

TED: THANK YOU. WE APPRECIATE IT.

KATHY LITTLEFIELD: THANK YOU, TED.