Denial of Voting Records Possible Lawsuit

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Arizona Secretary of State Michele Reagan has refused to provide voting records to the White House. Could that lead to a lawsuit since much of that information is available publicly? We will hear from attorney Dan Barr of Perkins Coie about that possibility.

TED SIMONS: GOOD EVENING AND WELCOME TO
ARIZONA HORIZON, I'M TED SIMONS.
DONALD TRUMP'S SON, SON-IN-LAW
AND FORMER CAMPAIGN MANAGER ALL
MET WITH A RUSSIAN LAWYER LAST
SUMMER IN AN EFFORT TO GET
DAMAGING INFORMATION ON TRUMP'S
DEMOCRATIC OPPONENT FOR
PRESIDENT, HILLARY CLINTON.
THAT'S ACCORDING TO EMAILS
RELEASED THIS MORNING "BY"
DONALD TRUMP JR. JUST PRIOR TO
THE NEW YORK TIMES REPORTING ON
THE STORY. THE QUESTION NOW:
DOES THIS REPRESENT COLLUSION,
CONSPIRACY, EVEN TREASON ON THE
PART OF THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN.
JOINING US NOW IS
JEREMY DUDAOF THE ARIZONA
CAPITOL TIMES AND THE AUTHOR OF
THE BOOK, "IF THIS BE TREASON."
GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN. I WANTED TO GET YOU ON BECAUSE OF THAT BOOK.
WE HAD YOU ON WHEN THAT BOOK CAME OUT. AND THE STORIES REGARDING TREASON, BETRAYAL AND LOYALTY.
FASCINATING STUIFF.
AND WHAT DID DONALD TRUMP, JR.
EXACTLY DO?
JEREMY DUDA: HE RECEIVED AN E-MAIL FROM A
MEADARY SAYING A RUSSIAN
GOVERNMENT LAWYER WANTED TO MEET
WITH HIM WHAT WAS DESCRIBED AS
THE RUSSIAN EFFORT TO HELP
DONALD TRUMP WIN THE ELECTION.
THEY CLAIMED TO HAVE CONCLUDING
INFORMATION AND WHO WOULDN'T
WANT THAT AND MOST WOULDN'T GO
TO THAT LINKS BUT HE SAID I LOVE
IT, LET'S DO THE MEETING.
HE CLAIMS NOTHING CAME OF IT.
IT IS RAISING EYEBROWS.


TED SIMONS: HE KNEW RUSSIA WANTED TO
HELP HIS FATHER WIN.
HE KNEW THEY HAD DAMAGING
INFORMATION AND HE TOOK THE
MEETING ANYWAY; CORRECT?


JEREMY DUDA: INDEED, HE DID.


TED SIMONS: FIRST OF ALL, IS THAT
COLLUSION?


JEREMY DUDA: I GUESS IT DEPENDS.
IT CERTAINLY SOUNDS LIKE THE
WEBSTER'S DEFINITION AS WE
UNDERSTAND IT.
PEOPLE ARE USING THAT LATELY AS
KIND OF A LEGAL TERM WHICH IN
THIS CASE I UNDERSTAND IT REALLY
ISN'T.
THERE IS NO LAW THAT WOULD
PROHIBIT, AS FAR AS I
UNDERSTAND, THE KIND OF
COLLUSION DONALD TRUMP, JR. IS
ACCUSED OF DOING AND WHAT PEOPLE
ARE TALKING ABOUT.
IT MAY NOT BE APPROPRIATE
POLITICALLY SMART.
IT IS NOT AS YOU SAY, THOUGH.


TED SIMONS: IT ISN'T COLLUSION TO
GET CAMPAIGN INFORMATION OR THAT
WOULD BE ILLEGAL?


JEREMY DUDA: I AM NOT SURE WHAT STATUTES
IT WOULD HIT ON.
NOBODY VIOLATES THIS OR THAT.
I KNOW ONE THING THAT IS A HOT
TOPIC IS ACCEPTING CAMPAIGN
CONTRIBUTIONS FROM FOREIGN
INDIVIDUALS.
NOW, THAT IS SOMETHING THAT IS
EXPRESSLY PROHIBITED BY FEDERAL
LAW AND FEDERAL CAMPAIGN FINANCE
LAWS.
THE QUESTION CAN BE WAS HE
SOLICITING SOMETHING THAT COULD
QUALIFY A THING OF VALUE?
SOMEONE FROM RUSSIA WRITES A
$2,000 CHECK TO YOUR CAMPAIGN IT
WOULD BE ILLEGAL.
IT IS PROBABLY MORE OF A GRAY
AREA AND I AM SURE YOU CAN GET A
DOZEN LAWYERS TO GIVE YOU A
DIFFERENT ANSWER.


TED SIMONS: DOES THIS MEET THE
DEFINITION OF CONSPIRACY?
CONSPIRING WITH A FOREIGN
ADVISORY IS ILLEGAL.


JEREMY DUDA: I AM NOT SURE ABOUT THE
STATUTES ON THAT.
THERE HAS TO BE A LAW YOU ARE
CONSPIRING TO BREAK.


TED SIMONS: AND DECIDING IF THIS WAS
JUST IDOL CHAT AND BY THE WAY
HERE IS THIS THAT AND THE OTHER.
IT IS NOT AS BLACK AND WHITE AS
PEOPLE ARE SUGGESTING?


JEREMY DUDA: NO, I THINK THE FACT IS THERE
ARE SO MANY ALLEGATIONS AND LAWS
THAT DONALD TRUMP, JR. MAY OR
MAY NOT HAVE BROKEN SHOWS HOW
MUCH OF A GRAY AREA WE ARE IN.


TED SIMONS: LET'S TALK ABOUT
TREASON.
THE BOOK YOU WROTE ABOUT WAS
SPECIFICALLY ABOUT TREASON.
I AM HEARING PEOPLE THROWING
AROUND TREASON.
IS THIS TREASON?


JEREMY DUDA: MOST DEFINITELY NOT.
THIS IS THE ONLY CRIME THAT IS
DEFINED IN THE CONSTITUTION AND
IT IS DEFINED NARROWLY AND THAT
WAS INTENTIONALLY.
LEVYING WAR AGAINST THE UNITED
STATES OR PROVIDING AID OR
COMFORTABLE TO AN ENEMY.
RUSSIA IS NOT THE MOST
FRIENDILEST COUNTRIES TO THE
UNITED STATES BUT WE ARE NOT AT
ALL WITH THEM.
NOTHING DONALD TRUMP, JR. HAS
ADMITTED TO DO OR IS ACCUSED
COULD BE CONSIDERED LEVYING WAR
AGAINST THE UNITED STATES OR
CONSPIRING WITH SOMEONE WHO IS.
IT HAS BECOME A POPLAR BUZZ
WORD.
FORMER BUSH WHITE HOUSE ETHIC
LAWYER AND MEMBERS OF CONGRESS
AND VARIOUS OTHERS ARE THROWING
IT AROUND BUT THERE IS NO WAY
THIS COMES ANYWHERE CLOSE TO
THAT CONSTITUTIONAL DEFINITION
IN ARTICLE 3.


TED SIMONS: DONALD TRUMP JUNIOR, ALONG
WITH TWO OTHERS, JARRED CUSHNER
AND PAUL MANAFORD TOOK THE
MEETING AFTER BEING TOLD NOT TO.


JEREMY DUDA: EVEN IF THERE IS NOTHING
POLITICALLY, IF YOU HAVE ANY
THOUGHTS THIS MIGHT BECOME
PUBLIC, WHICH THEY DIDN'T APPEAR
TO THINK, YOU DON'T WANT TO DO
THIS.
YOU WANT TO BE CAREFUL ABOUT WHO
YOU ARE TAKING INFORMATION AB
ABOUT.
FOR MOST CAMPAIGNS, RUSSIAN
GOVERNMENTS SHOULD HAVE BEEN A
RED FLAG TO STAY AWAY.


TED SIMONS: AND YOU CAN HAVE THE
RUSSIAN OFFICIALS TRYING TO
PLANT STUFF THAT COULD BE FALSE
LOOKING FOR, I DON'T KNOW FOR
LACK OF A BETTER WORD, A STOOGE
TO TAKE THE INFORMATION AND RUN
WITH IT.
YOU HAVE TO BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU
ARE ACCEPTING.


JEREMY DUDA: SURE.
WALKING IN THERE YOU HAVE NO
IDEA.
AND TRUMP, JR. INSISTS THERE WAS
NO INFORMATION AND THEY ENDED UP
DISCUSSING OTHER THINGS BUT YOU
WANT TO BE CAREFUL NOT JUST
ABOUT THE MEETING BUT ANYTHING
YOU WALK AWAY IT.


TED SIMONS: THE COLLUSION IS
POLITICAL AND A CONSPIRACY TO
WORK WITH A FOREIGN ADVISORY IN
AN ELECTION.
THE JURY IS STILL OUT ON THAT.
BUT THE FACT DONALD TRUMP, JR.
TWEETED THESE E-MAILS BEFORE THE
NEW YORK CITY TIMES STORY,
MOMENTS BEFORE "THE NEW YORK
TIMES" STORY CAME OUT, SUGGESTED
THEY WANT TO GET IN FRONT OF THE
STORY AND ALSO MAYBE THEY THINK
THEY DIDN'T DO ANYTHING ILLEGAL


JEREMY DUDA: I WOULD LOVE TO BE A FLY ON
THE WALL IN DONALD TRUMP, JR.'S
LAWYERS OFFICE.
WHETHER THEY DID ANYTHING
ILLEGAL I DON'T KNOW IF THAT WAS
THE BEST IDEA.
PEOPLE SAY GET EVERYTHING OUT AT
ONCE.
THE COVER UP IS WORSE THAN THE
CRIME.
YOU WANT TO BE TRANSPARENT AND
DON'T WANT TO WAIT UNTIL "THE
NEW YORK TIMES" IS ABOUT TO POST
THIS ON THEIR WEBSITE.
ANY INCLINATION OF A CRIME BEING
COMMITTED I CANNOT IMAGINE THEY
WOULD PUT THIS OUT IN THE
PUBLIC.


TED SIMONS: THANKS FOR BEING HERE.
GOOD TO HAVE YOU HERE.
YOU ARE WATCHING ARIZONA
"HORIZON".
COULD THE STATE FACE A LEGAL
CHALLENGE FOR "NOT" RELEASING
VOTER RECORDS TO THE TRUMP
ADMINISTRATION?
THAT IS COMING UP.

 

TED SIMONS: ARIZONA SECRETARY OF STATE
MICHELE REAGAN HAS REFUSED TO
PROVIDE CERTAIN VOTING RECORDS
TO A WHITE HGOUSE COMMISSION ON
VOTER FRAUD.
THE MOVE WAS APPLAUDED BY MANY,
BUT MUCH OF THE INFORMATION IS
ALREADY PUBLICALLY AVAILABLE AND
THE STATE COULD NOW BE OPEN TO A
LAWSUIT.
HERE TO EXPLAIN ALL THIS IS
DAN BARR, A 1ST-AMENDMENT
ATTORNEY WITH THE FIRM,
PERKINS-COIE.
GOOD TO SEE YOU.


DAN BARR: THANKS FOR HAVING ME.


TED SIMONS: THANKS FOR BEING HERE.
WHAT IS THE TRUMP COMMISSION AND
DID THE TRUMP COMMISSION ASK
FOR?


DAN BARR: WELL, ACCORDING TO THEIR
LETTER THAT WENT OUT ON JUNE
28TH THEY ASKED FOR ALL
PUBLICALLY AVAILABLE INFORMATION
FROM VOTER FILES AND THAT WOULD
BE SOMEBODY'S NAME, SOMEBODY'S
ADDRESS, THEIR PARTY
REGISTRATION, THE YEAR OF THEIR
BIRTH AND SOME INFORMATION LIKE
THAT.
IT WOULD NOT CONTAIN SOCIAL
SECURITY NUMBERS OR THEIR ENTIRE
BIRTH DATES.


TED SIMONS: HOW MUCH OF THAT
INFORMATION IS PUBLICALLY
AVAILABLE ALREADY?


DAN BARR: WELL, WITH EXCEPTION OF
SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBERS AND
BIRTH DATES AND MOTHER'S MAIDEN
NAMES ALL OF IT.
SO, WHAT YOU HAVE HERE IS TWO
THINGS THAT ARE UNDISPUTED.
ONE, VERY LITTLE EVIDENCE OF
VOTER FRAUD ANYWHERE.
TWO, MUCH OF THE INFORMATION
THAT MICHELLE REAGAN WAS ASKED
FOR IS PUBLIC INFORMATION.


TED SIMONS: SO, IF IT IS PUBLIC
INFORMATION -- ARIZONA LAW,
SOCIAL SECURITY, DATE OF BIRTH
AND MOTHER'S MAIDEN NAME ARE
SECRET IN ARIZONA LAW.


DAN BARR: CORRECT AND IN MOST STATES AS
WELL.
THE WAY MOST PUBLIC RECORDS
REQUESTS ARE HANDLED IS SOMEONE
MAKES THE REQUEST AND THE PUBLIC
OFFICIAL WILL HAND OVER THE
INFORMATION THAT IS OTHERWISE
PUBLIC.
FOR INSTANCE, IN THIS CASE,
MICHELLE REAGAN SHOULD HAVE
HANDED OVER THE INFORMATION
REGARDING THE PERSON'S NAME,
PARTY REGISTRATION AND THINGS
LIKE THAT AND WITHHELD THE
SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBERS AND THE
BIRTH DATES.
THE PROBLEM IS THE TRUMP PEOPLE
ALREADY HAVE THAT INFORMATION.
SO, UNLESS THEY GET THE SOCIAL
SECURITY NUMBERS AND BIRTH DATES
WHATEVER INFORMATION THEY GET
FROM ARIZONA IS PERFECTLY
USELESS TO THEM.


TED SIMONS: AND YET THE SECRETARY OF
STATE REVERSED THE COURSE
INITIALLY SAYING YES AND
REVERSED COURSE AFTER PUBLIC
OUTCRY.
THE REASONING WAS IT WOULD NOT
BE IN THE QUOTE BEST INTEREST OF
THE STATE.
WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
WHAT ARE THE RAMIFICATIONS OF
THAT?


DAN BARR: I THINK IT WAS THE BEST
INTEREST OF MICHELLE REAGAN
BECAUSE SHE REALIZED SHE WOULD
BE AN OUTLIER.
20 STATES DID GIVE THE
PUBLICALLY AVAILABLE INFORMATION
TO TRUMP BUT DID NOT GIVE SOCIAL
SECURITY NUMBERS AND DATES OF
BIRTH.


TED SIMONS: WHEN YOU USE THE BEST
INTEREST RATIONAL, THE OFFICIALS
USING IT HAVE TO PROVE IT IS IN
THE BEST INTEREST OF THE STATE.


DAN BARR: THEY HAVE TO SHOW THE
PROBABILITY OF A SPECIFIC
MATERIAL HARM TO THE BEST
INTEREST OF THE STATE AND THAT
IT WOULD HARM THE STATE OF
ARIZONA.
YOU HAVE A PUBLIC OFFICIAL
REFUSING TO PROVIDE OTHERWISE
PUBLIC INFORMATION TONS OF
PEOPLE HAVE.
POLITICAL PARTIES HAVE THEM,
REPORTERS HAVE THEM, ALL SORTS
OF PEOPLE HAVE THIS INFORMATION
ALREADY AND THE TRUMP
ADMINISTRATION HAS THIS
INFORMATION ALREADY.


TED SIMONS: OKAY.
SO, AND AGAIN, YOU WOULD HAVE TO
BE PROVEN TO BE SIGNIFICANTLY
IMPAIRED, I THINK IS PART OF THE
ASPECT.
INCONVENIENCE, EMBARRASSMENT,
NOT A REASON.


DAN BARR: NO, NOT A REASON.
I THINK MICHELLE REAGAN MADE THE
DECISION AND A LOT OF SECRETARY
OF STATES MADE THE SAME
DECISION.
A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND
WHAT INFORMATION IS PUBLIC.
THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE
GETTING UPSET SAYING WAIT A
SECOND, YOU ARE GIVING MY
INFORMATION TO THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT?
NO, WE DON'T WANT THAT.
IT IS INTERESTING.
SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO ALLEGE
VOTER FRAUD OUT THERE IT IS
ALWAYS ABOUT NAMELESS, FACELESS
PEOPLE SOMEWHERE ELSE.
USUALLY OF DARK SKIN COLOR WHO
ARE VOTING ILLEGALLY.
WHEN PEOPLE ARE BEING ASKED FOR
THEIR INFORMATION SUDDENLY NO,
YOU CAN'T HAVE MY INFORMATION.
THAT IS OUTRAGEOUS.


TED SIMONS: THIS THINGS LIKE IT
COULD BE PROBLEMATIC.


DAN BARR: THERE WAS A CASE I WAS
INVOLVED WITH A FEW YEARS AGO
WHERE THE ARIZONA REPUBLIC AND
THE EAST VALLEY TRIBUNE NAMED
256 NAMES AND THE BOARD OF
REGENTS.
MANY PEOPLE ON THE LIST DON'T
KNOW THEY HAVE BEEN NOMINATED.


TED SIMONS: SO THAT IS VERY RARE?


DAN BARR: VERY RARE.


TED SIMONS: ARE YOU CONCERNED
BECAUSE THE SECRETARY OF STATE
USED IT IN THIS INSTANCE IT
MIGHT NOT BE SO RARE?


DAN BARR: WELL, I THINK
MICHELLE REAGAN IS PLAYING THE
GAME.
THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION ASKED
FOR THIS INFORMATION KNOWING
THAT THE SECRETARY OF STATE
WOULD NOT PRODUCE IT.
MICHELLE REAGAN AND OTHER
SECRETARY OF STATES DON'T
PRODUCE IT I THINK KNOWING THE
TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS NOT
GOING TO SUE THEM OVER IT.
YOU HAVE THIS PUBLIC THEATER
OVER SORT OF NON-SENSE.
THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT MAKES
THIS REQUEST TO BE HONORED.
THE STATE GOVERNMENT DON'T GIVE
THE INFORMATION TO DO SO.
THEY ARE FAIRLY CERTAIN THEY
WILL NOT GET SUED OVER IT.
SO IT AS A BIG NOTHING BURGER
INVOLVING A LOT OF HEADLINES AND
STUFF.
IT IS SORT OF THEATER.


TED SIMONS: LAST QUESTION.
YOU ARE A FIRST AMENDMENT
ATTORNEY AND DEAL WITH THIS ALL
THE TIME.
PUBLIC RECORDS AND OFFICIALS WHO
DON'T WANT TO RELEASE THE
RECORDS.
COULD THERE BE A LAWSUIT OVER
SOMETHING LIKE THIS?
OVER HER DECISION JUST TO MAKE
SURE THAT THE BEST INTEREST IS
SHOWN AS AN EXEMPTION.


DAN BARR: PEOPLE PLOTTING AGAINST
MICHELLE REAGAN SAY PUBLIC
RECORDS ARE PUBLIC RECORDS AND
WE DON'T ASK THE USE OR DENY
THEM TO PEOPLE WHO ARE UNPO
UNPOPULAR.
SO, THAT MAY BE THE LONG TERM
PROBLEM HERE.
YOU SAW A LOT OF NEWSPAPERS
APPLAUDING MICHELLE REAGAN FOR
DOING THIS.
I THINK FOR POLITICAL REASONS
WITHOUT THINKING HER LEGAL
REASONS WERE SUSPECT.


TED SIMONS: THAT IS WHY I WONDER IF
SOMEONE WILL FILE A LAWSUIT TO
CLARIFY.


DAN BARR: MAYBE.
INTERESTING STUFF.


TED SIMONS: GOOD TO YOU HERE.


DAN BARR: THANK YOU.
 

Dan Barr: Partner at Perkins Coie

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