Joel Kotkin

In this month’s issue of Inc. magazine, Phoenix is rated the 16th best place in the country to do business. The city jumped up from 28th last year. The article is written by LA-based author Joel Kotkin, whose recent book, The City: A global history, explores the evolution of cities from the birth of civilization.

Transcript:

Cary Pfeffer:
Tonight on "Horizon", a battle in the legislature over immigration issues. Phoenix is a great place to do business, so says urban history author Joel Kotkin. And a cool escape from the Phoenix heat-and much more -- the history of Arizona falls on tonight's Arizona Stories.

>> Announcer:
"Horizon" is made possible by the friends of Channel 8, members who provide financial support to this Arizona PBS station. Thank you.

>> Cary Pfeffer:
Good evening, I'm Cary Pfeffer filling in for Michael Grant. Welcome to "Horizon". A predominantly partisan battle has been waged in the state legislature this session over the issue of immigration. Supporters of immigration legislation say the Valley's quality of life is being threatened. Opponents say legislation targeting illegal immigrants will divide communities. Add that to the controversy over the minutemen on the border recently, and it's clear immigration is a growing concern for Arizonans. Joining us to offer an overview of the contentious issues facing lawmakers this session, Republican representative Tom Boone of Glendale and Democratic representative Steve Gallardo of Phoenix. Thank you both for being here. I'm glad you both got the blue shirt memo. There's a certain uniformity to this program. Let's talk about the overall issue of immigration, a major focus of attention within the legislature this year. Representative Boone, let's talk about House Bill 2030. It is specifically focusing on education and immigration, correct?

>> Tom Boone:
Correct. It has childcare subsidies included. Maybe by way of background, you mentioned immigration is an issue, I think this is the first time I've been involved in the legislature with this. When I campaigned last time, the whole issue of illegal immigration and the frustration folks have with it not being addressed in general came in. As appropriations and in the house, I got to see the kind of money being spent if you will on programs dealing with, I should say programs offered without eligibility for illegal immigrants, that's where house bill 2030 came about. It addresses four different areas. One is adult education classes. The second is the in state residency for students. Basically, it has for all four categories, I should have mention, legal residency or citizenship. Adult education, have you to be a citizen, legal resident, in terms of in-state student tuition status. As you know, the state subsidizes a major portion of college education for folks in our state. Also, it deals with financial aid and tuition waivers, if there's any state monies involved it does not allow that for anybody that's here illegally. Childcare subsidies, we have a program in the state, we spend about $160 million on childcare subsidies for working poor. Those would be for those who qualify.

>> Cary Pfeffer:
Let's take one thing aside. It doesn't say that a student can't necessarily go to the school, it addresses instead the nature of aid and that sort of thing.

>> Tom Boone:
Absolutely. It addresses the issue of the state paying for any of that. So for example, they would be categorized as an out of state student, if you will for tuition purposes. Somebody that's here from Colorado legally, a citizen, they would pay the same as an illegal immigrant, they would pay the full amount of cost of tuition for our colleges and universities.

>> Cary Pfeffer:
Representative Gallardo, your thoughts?

>> Steve Gallardo:
I believe that the entire state is feeling the frustration of our broken immigration policies here in our country. I would believe that my fellow colleagues here would be very interested in joining me in urging our congressional delegation to step up to the plate and deal with our broken immigration policy. We cannot deal with the policy at the state capital. It is a federal issue not a state issue. Any attempt at the capital to fix it is wrong. Think of the message we are sending out that we are going to deny someone who has been in this country perhaps their entire life, they were brought here when very young, perhaps they're in the middle of becoming a citizen and we're going to deny them the post-secondary education. As appropriations chair -- how much of our appropriations or general fund dollars go to financial aid? Zero. To deny students a secondary education is wrong. The message is wrong. These kids have been in this country all their lives. For us to know, that the buck stops here is wrong. I would oppose House Bill 2030 just because of the fact that it's a bad bill. It's poorly written, it does nothing but expand or try and fix some of our poor drafting of Prop 200 and it's just bad for the State of Arizona.

>> Cary Pfeffer:
Your response?

>> Tom Boone:
First of all, I didn't think Representative Gallardo and I would agree on anything but I agree we should address the federal government to deal better with it. The minuteman is part of the frustration. House bill 2030 deals with state funding for folks. It's not trying to address the issue of people coming across the border, it's not sending folks down there to patrol the border, not dealing with any of the enforcement of immigration law, if you will, that is the federal government's role. I agree and it has failed, I agree with that, also. However, House Bill 2030 deals only with the State of Arizona and only funding for these programs. And when it comes to in-state tuition it's hard for me to believe that we should be paying a subsidy for those folks illegally, when someone from Colorado, has been a citizen, pays a full tuition.

>> Steve Gallardo:
There is a difference between a student from Colorado with a student who has been here their entire live. They have gone through our public education system, for the most part, they don't know Spanish, they don't know anyone in Mexico. For us to deny them a secondary education is bad. It's sending a sad message throughout this country and state we're going to tell a student who is very productive, you know what, you cannot seek a secondary education.

>> Cary Pfeffer:
What kind of numbers are we talking about? Has there been an ability to put a number on the amount of dollars that are spent as far as you're concerned that students who would fit into this country?

>> Tom Boone:
That's an excellent question. Part of the bill requires reporting. One of the things I've been really frustrated with he is getting a handle on exactly how much money that's being spent on folks that are here. It's impossible to get the data. I know I've seen estimate $1.3 billion that's probably more. There's no system, if you will, to collect that. In the bill there's a requirement that we can start collecting on these four areas that if they apply and they're denied we track it so we can get a sense of beginning sense starting with some of that data.

>> Cary Pfeffer:
I think we have a feel where the two of you come down on that particular issue. We'll move on because there's plenty of other material to move on to. Work centers, that again is a topic that's come up, a focus of attention in the valley. Update us and then your thoughts.

>> Steve Gallardo:
The work center sites were developed by local cities and towns throughout our state. They came from an outcry of neighborhood organizations that wanted to bring some of the day labor workers off the streets and into one particular facility for safety reasons, traffic reasons and so on. So the cities came up with nonprofit organizations to build these work sites. There has been a bill now, and keep in mind there is not one city or one work site within Maricopa County that I know of that is funded by any public dollars, they are all funded by nonprofits. This bill would eliminate any type of public funding for some of these work sites. I believe it is a public safety issue. We are taking them off the streets, we're trying to get them out of the corners of some of our busy intersections and put them in a central location. It's not just for those who are here undocumented but for U.S. citizens who frequent these work sites.

>> Cary Pfeffer:
Representative Boone.

>> Tom Boone:
There is a House Bill 2592, if I wrote it down correctly that basically says there will be no public funding for them. They can be funded by the private sector, by any other than government.

>> Cary Pfeffer:
Basically, as they stand, as portrayed, that would not be a violation as far as your understanding of the current bill, correct?

>> Tom Boone:
No.

>> Steve Gallardo:
It would take the toll from our local cities and towns. This is state government going and saying we are not going to let you deal with this problem, even though your city may have a problem with day labor workers there, too bad. The state legislature has decided for you that we're not going to let you spend your tax dollars even though you are a represented government, elected officials, we're not going to let you spend money ordeal with this public safety issue.

>> Cary Pfeffer:
One other last quick issue. English only, from the years I spent covering the legislature, that was an issue back then, it is still an issue today. Your thoughts on where we're going to go with that or if we're going to see more progress.

>> Steve Gallardo:
This is a very divisive issue. My question is what problem are we seeking to solve? What problem that is so critical that we have to be able to pass a bill that says English is the official language of the State of Arizona?

>> Tom Boone:
Again, the bills -- there's two bills, we passed the Senate bill out of the house recently and it deals again with the funding, the official business that we conduct in state government, not using state funds for conducting our business, if you will, with folks in other than English.

>> Steve Gallardo:
Very minimal funding.


>> Tom Boone:
Maybe, but nevertheless funding.

>> Cary Pfeffer:
Thank you very much for the update and debate.

>> Steve Gallardo:
Thank you.

>> Tom Boone:
Thank you.

>> Cary Pfeffer:
In this month's issue of Inc. magazine, Phoenix is rated the 16th best place in the country to do business. The city jumped up from 28th last year. The article is written by LA-based author Joel Kotkin whose recent book, The City: A global history, explores the evolution of cities from the birth of civilization. Larry Lemmons spoke with the author.

>> Larry Lemmons:
The report that Phoenix is the 16th best place to do business. How are those figures comprised? Why is this significant?

>> Joel Kotkin:
the numbers we used are job growth numbers. We didn't use the usually qualitative how good are the hotels, do they have X number of universities. We took job growth numbers. We felt they would be fairly straight ahead. Phoenix had very strong growth, and very strong growth for a big metro area.

>> Larry Lemmons:
It was the largest in the top 16 wasn't it? You've got Reno, Nevada, Boise, Idaho.

>> Joel Kotkin:
These places are growing for some of the reasons Phoenix has grown in the past. They are affordable, in some ways more affordable than Phoenix. They have good business climates. When you do the interviews which we did with many of the leading cities, you find out it's very prosaic reasons. Particularly for young people in their 30s looking to buy homes, or to raise a family.

>> Larry Lemmons:
In your book you mentioned Phoenicia, being very pro-business. Certainly Phoenix has prided itself on being a business-friendly environment. How does Phoenix compare historically?

>> Joel Kotkin:
You have to go through a lot of history before anything starts. The new kind of city starting in the late 19th, early 20th century increasingly built in part because engineering allowed it to be built. You could not have had a big Phoenix without major engineering projects. These are cities that have grown up where engineering has allowed them to grow whether it as air conditioning playing a major role, the automobile playing a major role, water systems. These are new kind of imagined cities, cities that have pushed themselves on the world stage. There was no natural reason for them to be there. These are the new cities that are really creating a new archetype in the world. Los Angeles may have been the first example. We see Dallas, Phoenix, Las Vegas, Reno a whole series of cities, growing fastest in the United States.

>> Larry Lemmons:
What would you say are Phoenix's strong points economically?

>> Joel Kotkin:
Well, I think Phoenix has several strong points. One of the major things is it has a relatively affordable housing compared particularly to the coast. A pro-business climate. It has a climate that is if not perfect is better than being in the upper Midwest and freezing your buns for most of the year. People seem to be willing to cope with heat more than to cope with cold. So those are all things that Phoenix has going for it.

>> Larry Lemmons:
On the down side, a lot of people in Phoenix are worried it's becoming another LA

>> Joel Kotkin:
I think there are good points and bad points. To some extent you will become more like LA as it goes to 6 million but there are some good things that you can learn from LA, as well, which what we're seeing in Los Angeles is a growth of these multi polar centers, not necessarily downtown but spread throughout the basin that are reviving. Phoenix could probably do a better job of planning than Los Angeles. LA in some senses it already happened, there's some stuff you can't reverse. Phoenix is in the position to be a multi polar city in a very interesting way and be able to buy enough open space and do some of the right zoning to make it work more efficiently. You have to start off with the assumption this isn't going to be Paris, not London, not Manhattan, it's going to look more like Los Angeles than New York City. You might as well get over it and start dealing with how do you make this work? How do you make this predominantly suburban -- multi polar city work efficiently and for the benefit for its residents.

>> Larry Lemmons:
There's a philosophy, particularly promoted by ASU President Michael Crow. The Knowledge Economy. If you build for example, research facilities you will attract certain talent, and that will help the economy. How do you feel about that?

>> Joel Kotkin:
I think it's time to dispel the notion that Phoenix attracts only dummies. When we did the research, Phoenix had done exceptionally well attracting educated people. That isn't something that needs to be corrected. In terms of the research facilities, it's whether the economy surrounding the facilities has a way of absorbing them. There are cities that still don't do much for the economy because people get their educations and they leave. The medical field, the most successful medical center in the United States is Houston, does not have one of the leading medical schools. It developed in a very organic way, is an enormous employer. I don't think that this obsession with research institutions is necessarily the key. I think that frankly we're talking about a class politics. It's a politics of the elite's and universities and media in particular saying, we are the chosen ones and we are the ones that everything should be built around. And I would object from the point of view that in some ways it may be considered more radical in some senses I think the question is how does this work for the middle class. Are you creating jobs for a wide number of people. Most importantly, what are you going to do about the biggest challenge facing Phoenix and Arizona, in the next 20 years, how do you incorporate a large and growing population of largely ill-educated immigrants coming from Latin America, particularly from Mexico. The fate of Phoenix is the fate of those people. If those people are not integrated into the economy and not educated and provided with opportunity for upward mobility, this place is in serious trouble. This is what we have struggled with in Los Angeles and you're going to struggle with it, too.

>> Cary Pfeffer:
When crews building the Arizona canal in the 1880s reached the area south of Camelback Mountain, they found a ridge of hard rock in their way. Instead of blasting it with dynamite, they let the water flow over it. Arizona falls began as a cool escape from the heat in Phoenix that eventually came to be used in some very different ways. Producer Merry Lucero and our Videographer Richard Tourellas bring us tonight's Arizona story.

>> Merry Lucero:
The canals were first to bring irrigation water for agricultural development. In the early 1880's Railroad excavator and entrepreneur William J. Murphy was hired to construct the canals. Murphy was dealing with funding issues floods, and raw desert.

>> Shelly Dudley:
He was doing excavation along land that hadn't been developed at all, hadn't any type of farm. And he had a point from the original Arizona dam to go all the way across to the Agua Fria. They had engineers out there, 1883, and they had to go through whatever they came across.

>> Merry Lucero:
One thing they came across, at what is now 56th street and Indian School, a solid shelf of rock.

>> Shelly Dudley:
There was a big fall in the land. And there had been possibly some discussion about taking out the grade. But even as early as 1883, when the Arizona canal was being built people saw potential for hydro power so they left the falls in there.

>> Merry Lucero:
The hydropower would come but first the falls would take on a different role. A place of pure enjoyment.

>> Shelly Dudley:
There was nothing out there before. It would have been cactus and dried brush and here we have a great canal going across the northern part of the Salt River valley and a spectacular falls and people ended up going out and having picnics.

>> Merry Lucero:
Murphy who acquired land, planted trees and grasses around the falls.

>> Shelly Dudley:
People lived in the desert, there was agricultural farmland but they probably wanted to go to open spaces. What better place to pack up their buggy, take the family, have a picnic basket and go to the falls.

>> Tom Jonas:
I can picture in history, that one being close to home, right in town here, I could just imagine some of the things that went on.

>> Merry Lucero:
Tom is a local history buff. He has researched Arizona falls and helps offer information about the place.

>> Tom Jonas:
The first thing I did was looked on the internet and figured there has to be some information on the internet. But there wasn't, a little bit on the Salt River Project, but there was not much out there. So I dug into it, did a lot of research. I figured I'll put something on the internet myself.

>> Merry Lucero:
the falls had potential for more than a picnic spot.

>> Shelly Dudley:
Around 1902, the first hydro power plant electricity was delivered to the city of Phoenix.

>> Merry Lucero:
In 1905, a huge flood took out that plant and the federal government authorized what is now Salt River project to take it over.

>> Shelly Dudley:
In 1910 the salt river valley water users association which is part of the salt river project saw the potential in the valley and signed a contract with the federal government to construct three hydro power plants in the valley along three different canals and one of them was the Arizona falls.

>> Merry Lucero:
The new power plant was finished by 1913. Providing electricity to farmers around the area. But the falls were now covered up.

>> Shelly Dudley: It became a great massive concrete structure.

>> Merry Lucero: And stayed that way until about 1950 when it was no longer a cost effective power source. The plant was shut down but the structure stayed for the next 50 years. Most valley residents had no idea what was under it.

>> Norma Steckenrider:
We first came here, we moved in about 1986, I used to walk the dogs up and down the road. And it just was ugly, it wasn't pretty. I didn't know there were falls there.

>> Merry Lucero:
But, At the turn of this century, new renewable technology and forward thinking has brought the falls back to life. SRP, city of Phoenix, U.S. bureau of reclamation and arts commission has committed to make the Arizona Falls new again.

>> Tom Jonas:
You get the roar of the water falling and the idea and mist and it just brings back what used to be there.

>> Shelly Dudley:
We've recreated the feel of the falls and producing green and renewable, it's a marvelous blending of technology in a learning environment.

>> Merry Lucero:
All in a creative and natural public art setting and once again, a good place for a picnic.

>> Paul Atkinson:
Arizona lawmakers have fought over cutting taxes and tax credits, vouchers, some bills have passed, others failed but many lawmakers have been alienated in the process. Why this has been a legislative session like no other in history. Tuesday at 7 on "Horizon".

>> Cary Pfeffer:
That does it for tonight's edition of Horizon. José Cárdenas will be back tomorrow night. I'm Cary Pfeffer.