Science Matters with Lawrence Krauss: Jupiter moon, dark matter filaments


TED SIMONS: TIME AGAIN FOR OUR MONTHLY CONVERSATION ON ALL THINGS SCIENCE WITH ACCLAIMED PHYSICIST AND BEST-SELLING SCIENCE WRITER LAWRENCE KRAUSS. TONIGHT: DEVELOPMENTS ON THE POSSIBILITY OF LIFE ON OTHER PLANETS. HERE HE IS, OUR FAVORITE PHYSICIST, ASU'S OWN, LAWRENCE KRAUSS. NICE JACKET, BY THE WAY.

LAWRENCE KRAUSS: THANK YOU AND YOU TOO.

TED SIMONS: THANKS FOR DRESSING UP FOR US.

LAWRENCE KRAUSS: I TRY TO RISE TO YOUR LEVEL.

TED SIMONS: POSSIBILITY OF LIFE ON A MOON OF SATURN.

LAWRENCE KRAUSS: REALLY?

TED SIMONS: THAT'S WHAT I HEAR. FIRST OF ALL PRONOUNCE THE NAME.

LAWRENCE KRAUSS: ENCELADUS IS WHAT I SAY.

TED SIMONS: WHERE DO THEY COME UP WITH THESE THINGS?

LAWRENCE KRAUSS: IT'S ONE OF THESE MYTHOLOGICAL THINGS. BUT ENCELADUS IS ALWAYS HOW I SAID IT. SOME PEOPLE SAY ENCELADUS BUT I SAY ENCELADUS BUT I THINK WE SHOULD END THAT THERE. THE POINT IS, IT'S A SNOWBALL. IT LOOKS LIKE A SNOWBALL. YEARS AGO IT LOOKED LIKE ONE OF THE WHITEST OBJECTS IN THE SOLAR SYSTEM. IT LOOKS LIKE A BALL OF ICE AND NOT VERY INTERESTING. SOME TIME AGO, A DECADE AGO, IT WAS REALIZED IN FACT, IT WAS ICE COVERED WATER AND ROCK. THERE ARE OCEANS, JUST LIKE EUROPA, ANOTHER MOON IN THE SOLAR SYSTEM, IT'S ICY ON THE SURFACE WITH A LIQUID OCEAN. WE TALKED ABOUT SENDING SHIPS TO LAND ON EUROPA AND DRILL THROUGH THE ICE. ENCELADUS HAS ICE BUT ALSO HAS THESE PLUMES THESE GEYSER LIKE PLUMES.

TED SIMONS: WE HAVE A SHOT OF IT, AN ARTIST RENDITION OF THE PLUMES.

LAWRENCE KRAUSS: I DON'T THINK IT'S AN ARTIST RENDITION.

TED SIMONS: YOU THINK IT'S THE REAL PHOTO FROM CASSINI

LAWRENCE KRAUSS: IF IT'S THE ONE

TED SIMONS: THAT'S NOT MAKE EVEN BELIEVE?

LAWRENCE KRAUSS: NO THAT'S THE REAL WORLD. MAKE BELIEVE CAN'T EVEN COMPARE.

TED SIMONS: WHAT ARE WE SEEING?

LAWRENCE KRAUSS: WE ARE SEEING THESE PLUMES THESE GEYSER LIKE PLUMES. THERE'S THE ICE. YOU CAN SEE THE POINT IS, THE SURFACE IS NOT SMOOTH BECAUSE WHAT'S HAPPENING THE INCREDIBLE GRAVITATIONAL PULL OF SATURN, THE TITLE FORCES ARE HEATING UP THAT MOON AND CAUSEING CRACKS IN THE ICE AND UNDERNEATH THAT ICE IS LIQUID OCEAN WHICH IN SOME PLACES IN ENCELADUS THE ICE MAY BE ONLY THREE MILES THICK AND A LIQUID OCEAN AND UNDERNEATH THAT AND ROCK UNDERNEATH THAT. WHAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT ABOUT THE RECENT DISCOVERY, THE CASSINI SATELLITE WHICH HAS BEEN ORBITING SATURN WHICH WILL KILL ITSELF IN A LITTLE WHILE BY GOING TO SATURN. THEY SENT IT THROUGH ONE OF THOSE PLUMES TO TEST TO SEE WHAT THEY COULD FIND IN THERE. PREVIOUSLY THEY HAVE HAD CARBON DIOXIDE AND METHANE DETECTED BUT WAS INTERESTING IS HYDROGEN GAS COMING OUT OF THAT. WHY WOULD THAT BE INTERESTING? BECAUSE THAT WOULD SUGGEST THAT AT THE INTERFACE OF WARM WATER AND GAS AT THE BASE OF THE OCEANS UNDER THIS ICE AT ENCELADUS ARE CHEMICAL REACTIONS THAT ARE BASICALLY CAUSING CARBON DIOXIDE AND THE ROCK TO INTERACT AND WATER TO PRODUCE HYDROGEN GAS AND MAYBE OTHER REACTIONS THAT PRODUCE METHANE, A REACTION -- THOSE REACTIONS PROVIDE ENERGY ON THE HYDROTHERMAL VENTS ON THE EARTH'S OCEANS THAT WE THINK MAY BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE EARLY FORM OF LIFE ON EARTH. THAT KIND OF CHEMICAL REACTION IN A HIGHLY REDUCED ENVIRONMENT WHERE THERE'S HYDROGEN COULD PROVIDE BY THAT REACTION ENERGY, WHICH COULD HAVE POWERED THE FIRST FORMS OF LIFE ON EARTH. SO, ALL OF THE CHEMICAL INGREDIENTS NECESSARY TO FORM LIFE NOW SEEM TO BE UNDER THE OCEAN OF ENSALADIS.

TED SIMONS: INTERESTING. AGAIN ENCELADUS WHICH IS -- HOW FAR IS THIS MOON FROM THE EARTH?

LAWRENCE KRAUSS: IT'S SATURN, SO IT'S A LONG WAY. THE POINT IS, WE'VE SENT CASSINI OUT TO SATURN. WE COULD IN PRINCIPLE WHICH AS IT HAS BEEN PROPOSED FOR A MISSION TO EUROPA TO DRILL DOWN INTO EUROPA, IT MAY MAKE MORE SENSE TO DRILL DOWN ON ENSALADIS. THE INTERESTING THING IS BY GOING THROUGH THOSE PLUMES YOU COULD LOOK FOR MORE AND MORE EVIDENCE OF ORGANIC MATERIALS. THE HYDROGEN WAS THE REAL KEY BECAUSE IT SUGGESTS CHEMICAL REACTIONS GOING ON AT THE BASE OF THAT OCEAN THAT ARE SIMILAR TO THE EARTH THAT MAY HAVE BEEN RESPONSIBLE FOR THE FIRST FORMS OF LIFE.

TED SIMONS: THAT'S IN OUR SOLAR SYSTEM. 40 LIGHT YEARS AWAY THERE IS THE PLANET LHS1140-B.

LAWRENCE KRAUSS: B.

TED SIMONS: I GOT THE B PART RIGHT. WE ARE LOOKING AT THE PLANET NOW. WE ARE ALSO LOOKING AT ITS STAR.

LAWRENCE KRAUSS: WE ARE NOT LOOKING. THAT IS AN ARTIST REASON ADDITION.

TED SIMONS: THAT'S MAKE BELIEVE.

LAWRENCE KRAUSS: YEAH. THAT'S MAKE BELIEVE. THAT'S WHAT WE MIGHT BE ABLE TO SEE YEARS FROM NOW. THAT'S A STAR A LOT SMALLER THAN OUR SUN AND LESS BRIGHT. LHS1140-B IT'S A PLANET ABOUT SIX TIMES THE MASS OF THE EARTH AND IT'S ORBITING ITS STAR EVERY 25 DAYS. WHAT'S REALLY INTERESTING IS, BECAUSE IT'S CLOSER TO THE SUN THAN OUR EARTH IS, BECAUSE THE SUN IS LESS STRONG, IT GETS THE SAME AMOUNT OF LIGHT AS EARTH DOES THEREFORE THERE COULD BE LIQUID WATER ON IT. WE HAVE DISCOVERED THAT ON OTHER PLANETS TOO THAT WE THINK MAY HAVE LIQUID WATER. THEY ARE IN WHAT'S CALLED THE HABITABLE ZONE. THERE IS A MEETING GOING ON RIGHT NOW HERE IN PHOENIX ABOUT ASTRO BIOLOGY, LOOKING FOR LIFE ELSEWHERE IN THE UNIVERSE. WHAT MAKES THIS DISCOVERY THIS PLANET THIS SUPER-EARTH INTERESTING IS THAT IT'S BEEN DETECTED TWO DIFFERENT WAYS. WE HAVE DETECTED A POTENTIAL HABITABLE PLANET AROUND THE NEAREST STAR TO US. WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THAT. PROXIMA B AND IT'S ONLY FOUR LIGHT YEARS AWAY. THAT PLANET GOES AROUND ITS STAR KIND OF LIKE THIS. BUT THIS PLANET GOES AROUND ITS STAR LIKE THIS. IT PASSES IN FRONT OF ITS STAR. WE HAVE BEEN ABLE TO MEASURE IT TWO DIFFERENT WAYS. WE HAVE BEEN ABLE TO MEASURE ITS EXISTENCE BECAUSE IT GOES IN FRONT OF THE STAR BLOCKING SOME OF THE LIGHT FROM THE STAR WE CALLED A TRANSIT. ALSO WE HAVE BEEN ABLE TO LOOK AT THE STAR AND SEE HOW THE STAR WOBBLES AS THE PLANET GOES AROUND IT. THOSE TWO DIFFERENT TECHNIQUES TELL US THE MASS OF THE PLANET AND ITS SIZE AND THE FACT THAT IT'S A POTENTIAL HABITABLE PLANET THAT PASSES IN FRONT OF THE STAR MEANS WITH THE NEXT GENERATION OF TELESCOPES, MAYBE THE JAMES WEBB SPACE TELESCOPE OR SUPER LARGE 40 METER TELESCOPES WE ARE BUILDING ON EARTH RIGHT NOW. WE MIGHT ACTUALLY BE ABLE TO IMAGE THAT ATMOSPHERE OF THAT PLANET AS IT GOES AROUND THE STAR. IF WE IMAGE IT AND SEE IN THAT ATMOSPHERE EVIDENCE OF OXYGEN, THAT WOULD BE STRONG EVIDENCE OF LIFE. THERE WAS NO OXYGEN IN EARTH'S ATMOSPHERE BEFORE LIFE FORMED. THIS IS THE FIRST HABITABLE PLANET WE MIGHT ACTUALLY IMAGE AND LOOK AT THE ATMOSPHERE OF. THAT'S WHY WE ARE SO EXCITED ABOUT IT. IT'S FURTHER AWAY THAN PROXIMA B BUT AT LEAST WE CAN SEE IT GOING IN FRONT OF ITS STAR. THAT'S WHAT MAKES IT SO INTERESTING.

TED SIMONS: I CAN'T COUNT HOW MANY TIMES WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT THINGS DISCOVERED BY GOING IN AND OUT OF SOMETHING ELSE'S SHADOW. THAT'S A REALLY USEFUL TECHNIQUE.

LAWRENCE KRAUSS: IT'S AN INCREDIBLY NEW TECHNIQUE. WHEN THIS PLANET GOES IN FRONT OF ITS STAR, IT SUPPRESSES THE LIGHT BY ONLY 1%. WE NEED THE NEW GENERATION OF EXCELLENT TELESCOPES AND TECHNIQUES TO BE ABLE TO SEPARATE THE STAR LIGHT FROM THE PLANET. THERE MAY BE A PLANET WITH LIQUID WATER. THAT'S INTERESTING BECAUSE IT WILL MAKE A LITTLE SEGWAY. WE LIVE IN A PLANET WITH LIQUID WATER. AS CLIMATE IS CHANGING FRESH WATER AND LIQUID WATER, OCEAN LEVELS AND SEA LEVELS ARE CHANGING. WE ARE HAVING AN EVENT, THE ORIGINS PROJECT, AT ASU THINKING ABOUT THE AVAILABILITY OF FRESH WATER, WHICH I KNOW YOU TALK ABOUT HERE, NOT ONLY IN THE SOUTHWEST BUT THE WHOLE WORLD, BRINGING TOGETHER A PANEL, A GROUP OF SCIENTISTS, TO TALK ABOUT THAT THE WE ARE HAVING TWO PUBLIC EVENTS THAT I WANT TO INVITE YOU AND OUR LISTENERS TO. WE ARE SHOWING TWO FILMS ONE BY FISHER STEVENS AND LEONARDO DICAPRIO CALLED "BEFORE THE FLOOD," AND FISHER STEVENS IS GOING TO BE THERE FRIDAY NIGHT AT GAMMAGE. ANOTHER FILM A FICTION MOVIE ABOUT AN ECO-DISASTER BY THE WORLD FAMOUS DIRECTOR WERNER HERZOG WILL BE THERE ALONG WITH THE WORLD RENOWNED ECONOMIST JEFFREY SACHS. WE ARE GOING TO SCREEN THE FILM AND HAVE A PANEL, FOR BETTER OR WORSE, I'M IN THE SECOND MOVIE.

TED SIMONS: THOSE ARE SOME PRETTY BIG NAMES. GIVE ME DATES AND WHERE?

LAWRENCE KRAUSS: FRIDAY AND SATURDAY 28TH AND 29TH OF APRIL IN THE GAMMAGE AUDITORIUM, 7 P.M. YOU CAN STILL GET TICKETS ONE NIGHT OR BOTH NIGHT. THIS IS AN UNBELIEVABLE EXPERIENCE. HAVING BOTH FISHER STEVENS HERE AND LEONARDO WAS GOING TO BE HERE, BUT HE IS GOING TO THE CLIMATE MARCH IN WASHINGTON. WERNER HERZOG IS ONE OF THE WORLD'S MOST FAMOUS DIRECTORS AND HE WILL BE THERE. WE WILL BE TALKING ABOUT WATER ON OUR PLANET. WE CAN WORRY ABOUT WATER ELSEWHERE, BUT OUT PLANET MATERS TOO.

TED SIMONS: LEONARDO AND WERNER. LEO FOR YOU.

LAWRENCE KRAUSS: WE CALL HIM LEO.

TED SIMONS: BEFORE YOU GO WE HAVE A COMPOSITE IMAGE.

LAWRENCE KRAUSS: I CALL YOU TED.

TED SIMONS: I KNOW. I KEEP ASKING FOR MR. SIMONS BUT YOU DON'T DO IT. COMPOSITE IMAGE. THIS LOOKS LIKE MAKE BELIEVE.

LAWRENCE KRAUSS: THIS ISN'T MAKE BELIEVE.

TED SIMONS: THAT'S AMAZING.

LAWRENCE KRAUSS: IT'S TWO GALAXIES. YOU CAN SEE THE BRIGHT SPOTS ARE THE LIGHTS OF THE GALAXIES. WHAT YOU CAN SEE IS ALL THIS STUFF IN BETWEEN THEM. WHAT HAS BEEN DONE HERE, IS TO USE GRAVITY AS A LENS LOOKING AT THOSE 23,000 GALAXIES BEHIND THOSE GALAXIES AS UP TO A DISTANCE OF 4.5 BILLION YEARS AS THE LIGHT PASSES THROUGH THIS SYSTEM, IT BENDS A LITTLE BIT BECAUSE OF GRAVITY. WE CAN USE THAT TO DETERMINE WHERE THE MASS OF THAT SYSTEM IS. WHAT YOU CAN SEE THERE IS A FILAMENT OF MATTER BETWEEN THOSE TWO GALAXIES. THOSE BLUE LINES DEMONSTRATE WHERE THE MASS IS. THIS IS ONE OF THE FIRST DIRECT EVIDENCE OF FILAMENTS OF DARK MATTER. OUR MODELS OF FORMATION OF STRUCTURE IN THE UNIVERSE WE IMAGINE DARK MATTER IS DOMINANT AND IT COLLAPSES INTO THESE FILAMENTS. AT THE INTERSECTIONS OF FILAMENTS NORMAL MATTER FALLS IN AND YOU FORM VISIBLE GALAXIES. WE MAKE THESE COMPUTER MODELS THE VISIBLE GALAXIES ARE THE BRIGHT THINGS YOU CAN SEE. THERE IS A DARK SPIDER WEB OF FILAMENTS OF DARK MATTER CONNECTING THEM. THAT'S WHAT THE MATTER SAY. WITH THE IMAGE, WE CAN BEGIN TO ACTUALLY SEE THOSE FILAMENTS ACTUALLY EXIST THAT ARE PICTURES OF DARK MATTER WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE FORMATION OF EVERYTHING THAT WE SEE, THAT PICTURE HOLDS TRUE.

TED SIMONS: THAT STRIKES ME AS A PRETTY BIG -- FINDING ANY DARK MATTER.

LAWRENCE KRAUSS: THERE IS LOT OF EVIDENCE FOR DARK MATTER. WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT IT, BUT SEEING THE FILAMENTS WERE ITS REALLY DARK BETWEEN GALAXIES IS REALLY IMPORTANT. PEOPLE LIKE ME FIGURE THEY HAVE TO BE THERE BECAUSE THE MODELS WORK WELL IN OTHER AREAS. IT PROVIDES EVIDENCE THAT EVERYTHING WE SEE IS HERE BECAUSE OF THINGS WE CAN'T SEE WHICH IS KIND OF INTERESTING. ONCE AGAIN, THE SHADOW WORLD. THE PURPOSE OF SCIENCE IS TO EXTEND OUR SENSES OF OUR OTHERWISE INVISIBLE UNIVERSE AND THIS IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF THAT.

TED SIMONS: WELL NOW THAT WE ARE ASKING THE BIGGEST QUESTIONS OF ALL LET'S ASK PROBABLY THE BIGGEST QUESTION WE ARE GOING TO ASK ALL SHOW, WHY DO MY SHOELACES KEEP COMING UNTIED?

LAWRENCE KRAUSS: YOU FIGURED WE TIE UP LOOSE ENDS HERE, HUH? WE COULD TO THE PUNNING.

TED SIMONS: YES WE COULD.

LAWRENCE KRAUSS: THERE'S BEEN A NEW STUDY INTERESTING ENOUGH. SOMEONE TRIED TO FIGURE OUT WHY ALL OF US WHO HAVE RUNNING SHOES IN THEM, THE SHOELACES ALWAYS COME UNTIED. SOME GROUP OF ENGINEERS ACTUALLY PUBLISHED A STUDY IN THE ROYAL SOCIETY THAT LOOKED AT THE MECHANICS. IT'S KIND OF AMAZING. WHEN YOU ARE RUNNING IN YOUR SHOES YOU PUT INCREDIBLE PRESSURE ON THE SHOELACES, 7GS, WHICH IS THE SAME AMOUNT AS THE APOLLO ASTRONAUTS. 7GS -- YOU CAN BARELY SURVIVE THAT AS A HUMAN BEING. THERE'S INCREDIBLE FORCES ON THOSE SHOE LACES. IT'S NOT JUST THE UP AND DOWN, IT'S THE TWISTING COMBINED WITH FORCES. THEY STUDY THIS IN GREAT DETAIL. WE HAVE TO LOOK AT THE IMPORTANT QUESTIONS AS WELL.

TED SIMONS: FROM WHAT I HAVE READ, YOU HAVE UNDER WATER CABLES, YOU HAVE SURGICAL EQUIPMENT, YOU HAVE SURGICAL KNOTS AND THINGS LIKE THAT. YOU WANT TO BE SURE THIS STUFF WORKS AND YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHY IT DOESN'T WHEN YOU RUN ACROSS THE YARD.

LAWRENCE KRAUSS: KNOT THEORY IS VERY INTERESTING SUBJECT.

TED SIMONS: THERE IS SOMETHING CALLED KNOT THEORY.

LAWRENCE KRAUSS: IT'S A BIG SUBJECT IN MATHEMATICS. THE TYING OF KNOTS. IN FACT, IT'S RELEVANT TO STRING THEORY WHICH MIGHT BE RELEVANT TO UNDERSTANDING THE ORIGINS OF THE UNIVERSE. IT ALL COMES TOGETHER, ALTHOUGH SHOELACES I THINK ARE SHOELACES. I THINK IT IS NICE TO KNOW PEOPLE HAVE FINALLY FIGURED OUT. I ALWAYS FIGURED BECAUSE I WASN'T TIEING MY SHOES RIGHT.

TED SIMONS: RIGHT!

LAWRENCE KRAUSS: IN FACT, NO MATTER HOW WELL YOU TIE THEM, YOU RUNNING YOUR SHOES. THE SHOELACES ARE GOING TO COME UNDONE. IT'S PHYSICS AND YOU CAN'T VIOLATE THE LAWS PHYSICS.

TED SIMONS: YOU KNOW WHAT YOU GOT TO DO. YOU GOT TO DO THE DOUBLE KNOT.

LAWRENCE KRAUSS: THE DOUBLE KNOT

TED SIMONS: YOU DO THE DOUBLE KNOT. THAT'S WHAT I DO.

LAWRENCE KRAUSS: MY DOUBLE KNOTS COME OUT.

TED SIMONS: DO THEY REALLY?

LAWRENCE KRAUSS: YEAH, THEY DO.

TED SIMONS: WHEN IS THAT EVENT AGAIN? THIS WEEKEND?

LAWRENCE KRAUSS: 7 P.M. FRIDAY AND SATURDAY, TWO WONDERFUL FILMS WITH THE DIRECTOR OF THE FILMS WITH JEFFERY SACHS ONE OF THE WORLD'S MOST FAMOUS ECONOMISTS. WE'LL HAVE GREAT DIALOGUES. GET TICKETS FOR BOTH AND I EXPECT TO SEE YOU THERE.

TED SIMONS: JEFFREY WILL BE THERE BUT LEO WON'T?

LAWRENCE KRAUSS: LEO WILL NOT BE THERE THIS TIME. LEO WILL BE IN WASHINGTON MARCHING FOR THE CLIMATE.

TED SIMONS: ALRIGHT, GOOD TO SEE YOU.

LAWRENCE KRAUSS: OK, ALWAYS GOOD TO BE HERE.

TED SIMONS: NICE JACKET

LAWRENCE KRAUSS: THANK YOU AND YOU TOO.

TED SIMONS: THURSDAY ON ARIZONA HORIZON: WE'LL GET AN ECONOMIC ANALYSIS OF PRESIDENT TRUMP'S TAX-CUT PROPOSAL. AND A VISIT WITH 60 MINUTES CORRESPONDENT LESLEY STAHL. THAT'S THURSDAY AT 5:30 AND 10:00 RIGHT HERE ON "ARIZONA HORIZON." THAT IS IT FOR NOW. I'M TED SIMONS. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US. YOU HAVE A GREAT EVENING.

Arizona State University physicist Lawrence Krauss joins Ted to discuss the latest science news, including the possibility of life on a moon of Jupiter and dark matter filaments

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Lawrence Krauss: Physicist at Arizona State University

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